Devoted to Performing Arts Activity - but not prospective major

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a stretch, but is your son math-y? I am not but love history and have been reading that Pythagoras was big into music theory and universal harmony and numbers. (And he did NOT invent the Pythagorean Theorem, which far pre-dated him.)

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/pythagoras-math-reality-music-spheres

https://www.jstor.org/stable/427754

Actually, he is! Thank you for sharing this.

[Anonymous]

From personal experience: many talented math and physics and engineering minded people are also into music and music theory. There are a lot of intersects here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son was like this. All of his best academic subjects were STEM but all of his activities were music. Now he’s in college for STEM and doing great. It may be harder if you were aiming for MIT or Caltech or something but he wasn’t.

MIT has an extensive music program open to all students.
Music is a plus. A high level of skill and discipline isca double plus. Any kid that wants to go to an excellent STEM program can crank out a STEM EC. Not all can perform mudic at national levels.

[Anonymous]

This is where paid counselors sometimes overthink things and offer ideas that are contrived rather than authentic.

I'd throw the idea to DC. College admissions aside, are they at all curious about or interested in "the intersection of music and science"? What does that phrase even mean to them?

Some kids are happy or even eager to think about something they love from a different perspective or to combine it with something from another discipline. Others are completely uninterested and want to keep enjoying their interests as they are.

Let your DC lead here. Sounds like a great kid who will have A LOT to work with when it comes time to apply to schools. Enjoy the ride!

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thank you for your responses and your kind words. I appreciate all of the experiences you shared and your advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The kids in performing arts, theatre, dance, music get into the same colleges as everyone else. The ones with high grades and scores go to top schools. They don’t have activities for the sole purpose of applying for college.

Let your kid live his life without the burden of trying to calculate what further activities to add to an already busy schedule.

This is the answer.

I’d add that the idea that ECs and major have to be aligned seems to me to be a product of the explosive growth of pre-professional majors, especially business/finance. As those programs get more and more competitive, the way for students to differentiate themselves is through demonstration of interest in/commitment to a specific career path, which these degrees are designed to pretty narrowly prepare them for.

I don’t think the same expectations exist for students who want to pursue a liberal arts major (which includes all STEM majors, except engineering). Academic rigor and strength are critical, and passion for the topic certainly helps, but liberal arts education is premised on exploration and learning, not preprofessional preparation. The idea that a 15-year-old would spend all of their non-school time on activities that prepare them for a career in physics or math doesn’t just doesn’t track. It’s much more important and relevant to max out academic rigor across the board and to go as deep as possible in the relevant area, then complement that with ECs that demonstrate commitment, leadership, and creativity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is a current HS soph, high rigor/high stats (so far!). Will apply to a mix of schools, including competitive/ those with low acceptance rates. He is a prospective STEM major. We are hearing so much about how ECs need to align with major. He will probably have 1-2, maybe 3 activities over HS that correspond, but his main thing is his instrument. (he is also a strong pianist in addition to his primary instrument)

There are some opportunities to be recognized nationally, but it's very competitive. Getting close is possible. We're hoping that state or regional accolades happen (even there, luck plays a huge role). Either way, he is achieving a lot with both instruments, loves it, is in audition-based ensembles in and out of school, will have increasing leadership, is making his mark, etc. That's most of his EC time. He's serious about it the way DD is with her travel sport. I learned that some schools will look at portfolios for music, art, theatre, etc. even for non-majors and he will probably submit one. He wants to stay active with music in college too.

Is it a problem that he's not all in on STEM for his activities, and instead has a performing arts interest that he is devoted to? Any advice for how to present himself on his apps? Would you recommend adding a music dbl major or minor? He has some interesting things to say about this STEM interest that he can write essays on. He has come to those interests more through classwork than his activities. At least so far. So, he can speak to what he wants to study and why, but he may not have a "in my free time I cured cancer" thing because he's busy with music. (Otherwise, he def would have cured cancer lol)

I had a general convo with a college counselor who thought DS should try to find an intersection of his STEM interest and his music background, and to write about that. To me this feels like manufactured nonsense. Is it? Ultimately, he's not giving up or lessening his time with music, so if it's actually a "problem," it is what it is!

Stem majors including engineering students at ivies and other elite privates commonly have performance arts dedication and get involved on campus. It seems to be a combination admissions prefers due to the high percentage that have it. No need to make a fake story to join it together: these top-most selective schools can and do get plenty of applications from 1530+, Val/sal or top handful from privates, maximum rigor in all areas, evidence of outside the classroom Stem interest and intelligence AND arts on top of all of that. Sure it could be a sport, or an intense volunteer endeavor, but arts seem to be the most common “non-stem” addon to the stem kids who are on campus. Yet in high school these kids were somewhat rare. Ivies and similar like rare. They like divergent interests and deep development of them. It is over half of the hard science and engineering students who also came in with chorus/a capella, orchestra or band, dance, or theater. A couple of them did two of these plus all the other top-stat stem student things.
Furthermore they support each other on campus, collaborating together on psets or labs yet attending each others arts when possible.
The students on these campuses who are not there due to significant non-academic hooks are beyond typical high stat kids. Your son sounds as though he would fit right in.
Look at all ivies that have his art plus look at similar-sized top privates(stanford JHU Duke et al). Most have similar combinations of students depending on what specific art your student wants.
We also know/have direct info on a handful that fit the description at Swarthmore.

[Anonymous]

^two kids at two different schools have seen the same pattern as have many of their stem friends from their private high school who attend peer schools in the ivy+ group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kids in performing arts, theatre, dance, music get into the same colleges as everyone else. The ones with high grades and scores go to top schools. They don’t have activities for the sole purpose of applying for college.

Let your kid live his life without the burden of trying to calculate what further activities to add to an already busy schedule.

This is the answer.

I’d add that the idea that ECs and major have to be aligned seems to me to be a product of the explosive growth of pre-professional majors, especially business/finance. As those programs get more and more competitive, the way for students to differentiate themselves is through demonstration of interest in/commitment to a specific career path, which these degrees are designed to pretty narrowly prepare them for.

I don’t think the same expectations exist for students who want to pursue a liberal arts major (which includes all STEM majors, except engineering). Academic rigor and strength are critical, and passion for the topic certainly helps, but liberal arts education is premised on exploration and learning, not preprofessional preparation. The idea that a 15-year-old would spend all of their non-school time on activities that prepare them for a career in physics or math doesn’t just doesn’t track. It’s much more important and relevant to max out academic rigor across the board and to go as deep as possible in the relevant area, then complement that with ECs that demonstrate commitment, leadership, and creativity.

This post is so incredibly insightful and helpful to me, and I'm sure many others. Thank you so much. -OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is a current HS soph, high rigor/high stats (so far!). Will apply to a mix of schools, including competitive/ those with low acceptance rates. He is a prospective STEM major. We are hearing so much about how ECs need to align with major. He will probably have 1-2, maybe 3 activities over HS that correspond, but his main thing is his instrument. (he is also a strong pianist in addition to his primary instrument)

There are some opportunities to be recognized nationally, but it's very competitive. Getting close is possible. We're hoping that state or regional accolades happen (even there, luck plays a huge role). Either way, he is achieving a lot with both instruments, loves it, is in audition-based ensembles in and out of school, will have increasing leadership, is making his mark, etc. That's most of his EC time. He's serious about it the way DD is with her travel sport. I learned that some schools will look at portfolios for music, art, theatre, etc. even for non-majors and he will probably submit one. He wants to stay active with music in college too.

Is it a problem that he's not all in on STEM for his activities, and instead has a performing arts interest that he is devoted to? Any advice for how to present himself on his apps? Would you recommend adding a music dbl major or minor? He has some interesting things to say about this STEM interest that he can write essays on. He has come to those interests more through classwork than his activities. At least so far. So, he can speak to what he wants to study and why, but he may not have a "in my free time I cured cancer" thing because he's busy with music. (Otherwise, he def would have cured cancer lol)

I had a general convo with a college counselor who thought DS should try to find an intersection of his STEM interest and his music background, and to write about that. To me this feels like manufactured nonsense. Is it? Ultimately, he's not giving up or lessening his time with music, so if it's actually a "problem," it is what it is!

Stem majors including engineering students at ivies and other elite privates commonly have performance arts dedication and get involved on campus. It seems to be a combination admissions prefers due to the high percentage that have it. No need to make a fake story to join it together: these top-most selective schools can and do get plenty of applications from 1530+, Val/sal or top handful from privates, maximum rigor in all areas, evidence of outside the classroom Stem interest and intelligence AND arts on top of all of that. Sure it could be a sport, or an intense volunteer endeavor, but arts seem to be the most common “non-stem” addon to the stem kids who are on campus. Yet in high school these kids were somewhat rare. Ivies and similar like rare. They like divergent interests and deep development of them. It is over half of the hard science and engineering students who also came in with chorus/a capella, orchestra or band, dance, or theater. A couple of them did two of these plus all the other top-stat stem student things.
Furthermore they support each other on campus, collaborating together on psets or labs yet attending each others arts when possible.
The students on these campuses who are not there due to significant non-academic hooks are beyond typical high stat kids. Your son sounds as though he would fit right in.
Look at all ivies that have his art plus look at similar-sized top privates(stanford JHU Duke et al). Most have similar combinations of students depending on what specific art your student wants.
We also know/have direct info on a handful that fit the description at Swarthmore.

Thank you, I really appreciate you sharing this. You and the PP above you know what you are talking about. Everything you're saying goes along with DS's situation and will really help us. Being on the younger side of HS, knowing all this college stuff is coming up, doing his best but feeling intimidated that he's not "strategizing" properly is stressful for him. He hears so many things from older kids, teachers, counselors - often contradictory. You've shared a great perspective to help us think about things. I am so glad so many posters are encouraging him to be who he is and follow what he genuinely loves.

[Anonymous]

What is a better junior summer activity for a kid like this— science internship, hospital volunteer program, or competitive top music summer program? Seems like research is very common and competitive music might stand out more but not sure. Thinking about both what is better for admissions, but also for future— is it harder to get into a research lab in college if you haven’t done a research internship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From personal experience: many talented math and physics and engineering minded people are also into music and music theory. There are a lot of intersects here.

This. No pulling together needed; it is a known crossover

[Anonymous]

So, legitimately, the person who graduated top in my year from the engineering school (she did her PhD at MIT) started off as an orchestral performance major and switched into engineering.

I also knew someone who doubled in music performance and computer engineering and one of the PhD students in the STEM lab I worked in played cello in one of the student orchestras. There's lots of ways to do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is a better junior summer activity for a kid like this— science internship, hospital volunteer program, or competitive top music summer program? Seems like research is very common and competitive music might stand out more but not sure. Thinking about both what is better for admissions, but also for future— is it harder to get into a research lab in college if you haven’t done a research internship?

Speaking from experience, both. Most high achievers have capacity to do a 4-6 week arts program and use the other 6 weeks for academic endeavors pr volunteering or both.


Regarding research labs at college all of the top private/ivies tout the fact that any admitted student can get into a lab, typically they recommend no earlier than freshman spring or summer. Many summer REU programs at or away from the student’s home university are open to college students after freshman year with NO or very little experience. They specifically target students from non-R1 /non-elite schools due to the fact that elite schools often have programs for their own students and many more research for freshman