Smart kid bombed PARCC test

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d be concerned that the kid might not retaining foundational math skills. Maybe they just had an off day, but worth further investigation.

Most high schools seem to give the PSAT8/9 in the fall of 9th grade, so even if you do nothing now that will give you another chance to gauge your kid against an outside standard. (And the scores come back in under a month, not like the PARCC.) If that reveals gaps, there are a lot of materials/tutors/prep classes built to improve performance on the SAT.

Op here. Thanks, I'm also worried about retention and some pretty big gaps from the covid years. I don't think they get the PSAT till 10th, though.

What math are they doing in 8th grade and how are they doing? My 8th grader is in algebra but we figured out they had huge gaps (in addition to the school failing to make an effort to actually teach algebra but that’s a different post). We are planning on likely retaking algebra in 9th or over the summer as we work on shoring up the fundamentals in parallel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How did they do on ELA?

Not great, a 3 right at the borderline between 3 and 4. I believe the previous year it was a low 5. On MAP he gets 95 percentile ELA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How old are they? It is totally possible that no matter how bright, they are missing fundamental math skills. And I wouldn’t count on there being any coordination between the skills tested on the MAP, the current class, and the PARCC/CAPE.

I have yet to see and actual CAPE report but the PARCC reports were actually really helpful and detailed to show areas of weaknesses and strengths, so that will give you more info beyond the 2.

Given how much schools “teach to the test” I would in fact be worried about the 2. One year my kid got a 3, but by looking at the detailed report, I could tell exactly why. There are sub scores so I could see that while he was OK on the fundamentals, the weakness was showing his work on word problems.

Last thing … DCPS has devolved into some pretty terrible math instruction practices. Many parents are figuring out in middle school that their kids have some pretty extreme gaps so you wouldn’t be alone. We are doing Mathnasium which is expensive but seems to have a good approach and has seen a ton of similar kids.

You got a note detailed report than what came in the mail? I didn't have it in front of me but the report I saw broke down the subject areas under math in 4 main categories and my child was at 2 on all of them.

I haven’t gotten ours yet but the one I remember from 5th had the 4 main categories and sub scores.

Yes I would be concerned about all 2s. Does your DS remember anything about the testing? Like he didn’t finish for some reason? Or tanked it on purpose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How did they do on ELA?

Not great, a 3 right at the borderline between 3 and 4. I believe the previous year it was a low 5. On MAP he gets 95 percentile ELA.

Any SN?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One test result is an anomaly. I wouldn’t worry too much about it for reasons others have posted (it could be that the kid just hasn’t covered the material in a long time). I think other parents suggesting the kid take a khan academy test or some other quick evaluation is a good sanity check, especially if you’re worried about waiting too long until the next formal evaluation

I would not write a 2 off as an anomaly. That is a bad score. I would get the score report and investigate what happened. In the old days, a bubbling error could genuinely be the explanation, but not anymore with CAPE style. Agree that the KA challenge is a good way to double check.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How old are they? It is totally possible that no matter how bright, they are missing fundamental math skills. And I wouldn’t count on there being any coordination between the skills tested on the MAP, the current class, and the PARCC/CAPE.

I have yet to see and actual CAPE report but the PARCC reports were actually really helpful and detailed to show areas of weaknesses and strengths, so that will give you more info beyond the 2.

Given how much schools “teach to the test” I would in fact be worried about the 2. One year my kid got a 3, but by looking at the detailed report, I could tell exactly why. There are sub scores so I could see that while he was OK on the fundamentals, the weakness was showing his work on word problems.

Last thing … DCPS has devolved into some pretty terrible math instruction practices. Many parents are figuring out in middle school that their kids have some pretty extreme gaps so you wouldn’t be alone. We are doing Mathnasium which is expensive but seems to have a good approach and has seen a ton of similar kids.

You got a note detailed report than what came in the mail? I didn't have it in front of me but the report I saw broke down the subject areas under math in 4 main categories and my child was at 2 on all of them.

I haven’t gotten ours yet but the one I remember from 5th had the 4 main categories and sub scores.

Yes I would be concerned about all 2s. Does your DS remember anything about the testing? Like he didn’t finish for some reason? Or tanked it on purpose?

He remembers that several of the "really smart kids" remembered one of the problems where the answer choices didn't match the answer they all got. I remember him saying that at the time. He had slacked on a test several years back as a half hearted protest but promised this time was a good effort. When we saw the envelope come he was eager to see because he thought he did well.

I'm worried it's an ADHD thing.

Is the main difference between CAPE and MAP that MAP is adaptive and gets harder the better you do and CAPE is standardized across the board? I'm grasping at straws but wondering if he zones out more if it seems like it's not challenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How old are they? It is totally possible that no matter how bright, they are missing fundamental math skills. And I wouldn’t count on there being any coordination between the skills tested on the MAP, the current class, and the PARCC/CAPE.

I have yet to see and actual CAPE report but the PARCC reports were actually really helpful and detailed to show areas of weaknesses and strengths, so that will give you more info beyond the 2.

Given how much schools “teach to the test” I would in fact be worried about the 2. One year my kid got a 3, but by looking at the detailed report, I could tell exactly why. There are sub scores so I could see that while he was OK on the fundamentals, the weakness was showing his work on word problems.

Last thing … DCPS has devolved into some pretty terrible math instruction practices. Many parents are figuring out in middle school that their kids have some pretty extreme gaps so you wouldn’t be alone. We are doing Mathnasium which is expensive but seems to have a good approach and has seen a ton of similar kids.

You got a note detailed report than what came in the mail? I didn't have it in front of me but the report I saw broke down the subject areas under math in 4 main categories and my child was at 2 on all of them.

I haven’t gotten ours yet but the one I remember from 5th had the 4 main categories and sub scores.

Yes I would be concerned about all 2s. Does your DS remember anything about the testing? Like he didn’t finish for some reason? Or tanked it on purpose?

He remembers that several of the "really smart kids" remembered one of the problems where the answer choices didn't match the answer they all got. I remember him saying that at the time. He had slacked on a test several years back as a half hearted protest but promised this time was a good effort. When we saw the envelope come he was eager to see because he thought he did well.

I'm worried it's an ADHD thing.

Is the main difference between CAPE and MAP that MAP is adaptive and gets harder the better you do and CAPE is standardized across the board? I'm grasping at straws but wondering if he zones out more if it seems like it's not challenging.

Zoning out and getting a *2* are very different things. CAPE requires a lot more explanation than MAP/iready. If he doesn’t understand the math he’s doing or has weak writing skills, it shows up a lot more on CAPE math than more old school multiple choice style standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How did they do on ELA?

Not great, a 3 right at the borderline between 3 and 4. I believe the previous year it was a low 5. On MAP he gets 95 percentile ELA.

Wait, he also got a 3 in ELA??? There’s an issue. If he went from a 5 to a 3, that’s… major regression. Like he actually got worse overall (not just relatively). For context, my kids’ school’s data shows there were *zero* kids that went from a 5 to a 3 in either math or ELA; in math, there were also zero children who went from a 4 to a 2 (though 2 kids did the opposite).

Something is going on with your kid. I’m no longer convinced it’s math-specific.

[Anonymous]

A few things to note (from a former school psych and current school admin who manages assessments):

1. Performance on MAP and CAPE/PARCC is generally highly correlated in math and ELA but the tests are very different.
- The biggest difference is that MAP is un-timed and adaptive, whereas CAPE/PARCC is timed and only measures grade level standards.
- CAPE/PARCC also includes a lot of tasks that require students to write (explaining their reasoning, etc), where MAP doesn't include any of these tasks at all. Take a look at the CAPE blueprints and how many points Type 2 and Type 3 questions are worth: https://dc.mypearsonsupport.com/resources/blueprints/DC%20CAPE%20Math%20Sp24%20Assessment%20Design%20and%20Blueprint.FINAL.pdf

2. Because CAPE is timed, I often see really capable kids who don't finish the math units because they are working so diligently (checking their work, spending a long time on the question that requires them to type/explain reasoning). This might be what's going on with your student, but unfortunately schools can't go back and see at this point. You could absolutely talk with your child's school towards the end of the testing window this year to see if the student was able to finish their math units.

3. Depending on the school your child attends, some schools re-test their students on MAP particularly if their score is lower than the last time they took it or it doesn't show their growth. Might be worth asking just to see if your child has had instances of scoring below what you would expect but they aren't ever showed to you because they retest him.

4. Just to de-bunk what someone else wrote earlier, OSSE doesn't make students take a test that the student didn't enroll it. The school ultimately has the choice - e.g., if an 8th grader is taking Algebra, the school can either choose for the student to take the 8th grade math CAPE test or the Algebra CAPE test. It's absolutely possible that your child didn't do as well because he took a test that wasn't aligned with the course he was enrolled in. Additionally, this wouldn't impact him on MAP because the test is adaptive and covers a variety of subjects whereas CAPE/PARCC only assesses the standards for a specific grade/subject/content (e.g., only 8th grade math, only Algebra).

Hope that helps!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How old are they? It is totally possible that no matter how bright, they are missing fundamental math skills. And I wouldn’t count on there being any coordination between the skills tested on the MAP, the current class, and the PARCC/CAPE.

I have yet to see and actual CAPE report but the PARCC reports were actually really helpful and detailed to show areas of weaknesses and strengths, so that will give you more info beyond the 2.

Given how much schools “teach to the test” I would in fact be worried about the 2. One year my kid got a 3, but by looking at the detailed report, I could tell exactly why. There are sub scores so I could see that while he was OK on the fundamentals, the weakness was showing his work on word problems.

Last thing … DCPS has devolved into some pretty terrible math instruction practices. Many parents are figuring out in middle school that their kids have some pretty extreme gaps so you wouldn’t be alone. We are doing Mathnasium which is expensive but seems to have a good approach and has seen a ton of similar kids.

You got a note detailed report than what came in the mail? I didn't have it in front of me but the report I saw broke down the subject areas under math in 4 main categories and my child was at 2 on all of them.

I haven’t gotten ours yet but the one I remember from 5th had the 4 main categories and sub scores.

Yes I would be concerned about all 2s. Does your DS remember anything about the testing? Like he didn’t finish for some reason? Or tanked it on purpose?

He remembers that several of the "really smart kids" remembered one of the problems where the answer choices didn't match the answer they all got. I remember him saying that at the time. He had slacked on a test several years back as a half hearted protest but promised this time was a good effort. When we saw the envelope come he was eager to see because he thought he did well.

I'm worried it's an ADHD thing.

Is the main difference between CAPE and MAP that MAP is adaptive and gets harder the better you do and CAPE is standardized across the board? I'm grasping at straws but wondering if he zones out more if it seems like it's not challenging.

Zoning out and getting a *2* are very different things. CAPE requires a lot more explanation than MAP/iready. If he doesn’t understand the math he’s doing or has weak writing skills, it shows up a lot more on CAPE math than more old school multiple choice style standardized tests.

Op back again. Thanks for this explanation. I think writing is weak. I hadn't realized CAPE was more sophisticated than multiple choice.

A lot of math homework was in IXL in previous years and then at some point in middle school switched to Delta Math. Maybe with both of these there can be a lot of guessing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How did they do on ELA?

Not great, a 3 right at the borderline between 3 and 4. I believe the previous year it was a low 5. On MAP he gets 95 percentile ELA.

Wait, he also got a 3 in ELA??? There’s an issue. If he went from a 5 to a 3, that’s… major regression. Like he actually got worse overall (not just relatively). For context, my kids’ school’s data shows there were *zero* kids that went from a 5 to a 3 in either math or ELA; in math, there were also zero children who went from a 4 to a 2 (though 2 kids did the opposite).

Something is going on with your kid. I’m no longer convinced it’s math-specific.

This is interesting. How do you see student movement across years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A few things to note (from a former school psych and current school admin who manages assessments):

1. Performance on MAP and CAPE/PARCC is generally highly correlated in math and ELA but the tests are very different.
- The biggest difference is that MAP is un-timed and adaptive, whereas CAPE/PARCC is timed and only measures grade level standards.
- CAPE/PARCC also includes a lot of tasks that require students to write (explaining their reasoning, etc), where MAP doesn't include any of these tasks at all. Take a look at the CAPE blueprints and how many points Type 2 and Type 3 questions are worth: https://dc.mypearsonsupport.com/resources/blueprints/DC%20CAPE%20Math%20Sp24%20Assessment%20Design%20and%20Blueprint.FINAL.pdf

2. Because CAPE is timed, I often see really capable kids who don't finish the math units because they are working so diligently (checking their work, spending a long time on the question that requires them to type/explain reasoning). This might be what's going on with your student, but unfortunately schools can't go back and see at this point. You could absolutely talk with your child's school towards the end of the testing window this year to see if the student was able to finish their math units.

3. Depending on the school your child attends, some schools re-test their students on MAP particularly if their score is lower than the last time they took it or it doesn't show their growth. Might be worth asking just to see if your child has had instances of scoring below what you would expect but they aren't ever showed to you because they retest him.

4. Just to de-bunk what someone else wrote earlier, OSSE doesn't make students take a test that the student didn't enroll it. The school ultimately has the choice - e.g., if an 8th grader is taking Algebra, the school can either choose for the student to take the 8th grade math CAPE test or the Algebra CAPE test. It's absolutely possible that your child didn't do as well because he took a test that wasn't aligned with the course he was enrolled in. Additionally, this wouldn't impact him on MAP because the test is adaptive and covers a variety of subjects whereas CAPE/PARCC only assesses the standards for a specific grade/subject/content (e.g., only 8th grade math, only Algebra).

Hope that helps!

This is very helpful context. I'll need to save and digest this.

Thanks to you and the other pp's helping me understand that I should take this seriously.

For context, he was assessed for ADHD and found borderline. Not medicated since he didn't want to and grades and school had not been a problem in the past. High IQ. The psychiatrist we sawa couple years ago said it was fine to wait and see if problems developed. Maybe this is that red flag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Op here. Thanks, I'm also worried about retention and some pretty big gaps from the covid years. I don't think they get the PSAT till 10th, though.

PSAT is in 9th grade (at Jackson-Reed at least). My ADHD kid was diagnosed in 8th grade and honestly, meds have made an enormous difference. We were all resistant, but... it was the right call for them.

[Anonymous]

PARCC is a very rigorous test. The other state tests are much easier.

[Anonymous]

One thing I haven’t seen anyone else point out…scoring in the 90% percentile on MAP doesn’t necessarily mean that a student is mastering grade level material - it just means that they scored better than 90% of the kids in their grade across the entire MAP norm referencing group (I haven’t read the MAP documentation in the past few years, but the norm group is usually tens of thousands of tests from students across the country in mostly public, but some private schools). If you’ve read about our country’s latest 4th and 8th grade test scores on the NAEP, you know they are not good. So scoring in the 90% just tells you that your kid is doing better than most other kids their age, but not necessarily that they are on grade level.

The PARCC is standards based. It test specific skills (defined by the Common Core standards) that a student should know by the end of the year in the grade in which they took the test. The Common Core standards and the original tests (PARCC and SBAC) created to test mastery of the standards have been hotly debated, so love them or hate them, but most educators agree that kids need to master these standards to be successful in higher level high school courses and in college.

If a kid is scoring a 2 or 3 on PARCC, you should dig deeper and find out why. He could have had a bad test day, he might not have tried very hard, etc., but you should figure out why, and if there are gaps in his knowledge, work on filling them now.