Question for MS/HS teachers- % IEP/504 and your time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not in FCPS but an IEP mom. I think teachers should get additional planing time to administer IEPs. I also think if they got overtime to do IEP meetings before or after school that would not only be easier for parents but also might be better for teachers. Definitely something I would expect the unions to advocate for.

I also think schools would benefit a lot by just putting a modest amount of effort up front to write IEPs and 504s that a) actually address the issues and b) can be implemented. There is no reason to have an IEP that cannot physically be implemented. Just because parents demand something (ie written lecture notes) does not mean that schools have to agree if it is too burdensome. Inevitably these are not magic keys to access the curriculum but rather a laundry list of items.

Part of the problem is parent groups sometimes convince parents they need to demand all kinds of things in their kid’s IEP or 504 and not settle for anything less. One of my kids has a 504 with some basic accommodations. According to some parent groups I should be demanding an IEP and several things that I know are not realistic for the district to provide. But some of these groups are very dogmatic in their thinking and try to make parents feel like they aren’t doing enough if they don’t demand everything under the sun.

I totally agree with this.

Another mom whose kid has a 504

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HS math.

It's a lot of prep work ahead of time and a ton of mental load, but not a huge time issue as the year goes on. Seating charts are huge, marking up rosters so when I'm entering grades and Larla's paper is 3 days late I know she has up to 5 days extension and I don't mark it late.

90% of accommodations are things I do for everyone. Copy of teacher notes ahead of time (these are scanned into schoology the day before class generally, paper copies are made for absent students to grab so if an IEP kid needs them they can grab them too), brain breaks (don't we all zone out when we need to?), reminders to stay on task (everyone gets these), etc.

The most challenging accommodation is usually extended time (which almost everyone has by high school, because parents want it for SATs). I *have* to give 1.5x or 2x to those students. That means finding time outside of class to meet with them (impossible), or trying to babysit them during the remediation block (chaos). My go for a while was to shrink assessments to a point where kids can complete it in 30 minutes, so double time is 60 minutes, and I give them 90 minutes so there is no excuse not to finish. I was told that's not meeting the accommodation though unless I physically collect all non extended time assessments after 45 minutes. If I let any gen ed kid have 90 minutes, I have to let any double time student have 180 minutes. That's a lot of makeup time to find when it applies to all classes.

Sometimes a single kid will take up a lot of time, like the year I had a fully blind student in my AP math course. Then I had to have everything done 2 weeks in advance to be brailed and modified for their needs. Most of the time though, it's not anything beyond what everyone gets.

Data collection forms can be tedious depending how the goals are written. When they are written well, it is short and sweet. When they are poorly written or on things that are hard to track, it can be more challenging. I have a few kids this year whose goal is attendance (easy, that's in SIS) but one in particular is asking how many minutes they are in class. That's harder, because I have to track every time they are tardy (how much?), go to the bathroom (how long?), go see a counselor, etc. E-hallpass tracks most of it, but I have to look it up and be diligent about closing passes immediately upon return vs when i have a free moment. I wish instead it was written as "Child was present for entire class without leaving the room" and I could just put yes/no vs. calculating the percent of time they were present.

Meetings are minimal. As a core teacher I attend more than most I suspect (parents don't want a PE teacher to be present as much as they want math/english), but it's rarely more than once a week. 504s typically last 30 minutes, IEPs last around an hour but if it's not contentious and I've said my piece they will often dismiss me early.

I agree the biggest thing that would help me is smaller class sizes. Everyone would win. Students would have space to move/spread out, I could get to everyone, I'd know the kids better. 25 is the magic tipping point where things become difficult to meet everyone's needs, and my smallest class this year is 29. If I had my way, core on-level classes would be capped at 20. Honors/AP can go higher (the need for remediation tends to be lower), but even they should be capped at 28.

My DC has graduated. When he had an IEP, that called for extended time (and a reader/scribe), any assessments were done in the LD office. The teacher did not have to monitor them, or provide those accommodations. There was always someone from the LD office that did it. This is what happened in MS and HS.

Quoted teacher: What is the “LD office”? I’m on my 4th FCPS middle/high school and am not familiar with that term. Teachers are all responsible for meeting the accommodations on their rosters at my school.

Sometimes I get lucky and a kid has a free period or a strats class and I can borrow that time for the extended time, but usually it’s the advisory/remediation block.

I write math tests I can do in 7-10 minutes. I can’t make them much shorter. Some kids finish in 15. Some kids take the full 90. If I let them have 90, I have to give my 1.5x kids another 45 minutes. The problem is finding those 45 minutes. The alternative is making everyone turn in their tests after 60 minutes and letting my 1.5x kids work to the bell, but that very much puts a spotlight on them that I am hesitant to do.

[Anonymous]

“ I was told that's not meeting the accommodation though unless I physically collect all non extended time assessments after 45 minutes. If I let any gen ed kid have 90 minutes, I have to let any double time student have 180 minutes.”

It makes me mad this is the case. It should be about ensuring all kids have enough time to finish the test not about making sure they get MORE than other students. The insistence that extra time can’t be given to everyone is nonsensical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Special education teacher here. My 5 classes typically have 10-15 students with IEPs. Requests for IEP feedback, goals and narratives are probably 70-80 times a year (accounting for reevals and annual IEPs). I am able to provide a great deal of data so these tend to take over an hour each. I collect hundreds of data samples each quarter. I case manage 12 kids, 2 of whom require more than the average number of meetings, a few who are pretty easy. I am never done. I need smaller class sizes and a smaller caseload. I doubt I’ll last much longer.

+1. Same exact situation here. It's untenable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HS math.

It's a lot of prep work ahead of time and a ton of mental load, but not a huge time issue as the year goes on. Seating charts are huge, marking up rosters so when I'm entering grades and Larla's paper is 3 days late I know she has up to 5 days extension and I don't mark it late.

90% of accommodations are things I do for everyone. Copy of teacher notes ahead of time (these are scanned into schoology the day before class generally, paper copies are made for absent students to grab so if an IEP kid needs them they can grab them too), brain breaks (don't we all zone out when we need to?), reminders to stay on task (everyone gets these), etc.

The most challenging accommodation is usually extended time (which almost everyone has by high school, because parents want it for SATs). I *have* to give 1.5x or 2x to those students. That means finding time outside of class to meet with them (impossible), or trying to babysit them during the remediation block (chaos). My go for a while was to shrink assessments to a point where kids can complete it in 30 minutes, so double time is 60 minutes, and I give them 90 minutes so there is no excuse not to finish. I was told that's not meeting the accommodation though unless I physically collect all non extended time assessments after 45 minutes. If I let any gen ed kid have 90 minutes, I have to let any double time student have 180 minutes. That's a lot of makeup time to find when it applies to all classes.

Sometimes a single kid will take up a lot of time, like the year I had a fully blind student in my AP math course. Then I had to have everything done 2 weeks in advance to be brailed and modified for their needs. Most of the time though, it's not anything beyond what everyone gets.

Data collection forms can be tedious depending how the goals are written. When they are written well, it is short and sweet. When they are poorly written or on things that are hard to track, it can be more challenging. I have a few kids this year whose goal is attendance (easy, that's in SIS) but one in particular is asking how many minutes they are in class. That's harder, because I have to track every time they are tardy (how much?), go to the bathroom (how long?), go see a counselor, etc. E-hallpass tracks most of it, but I have to look it up and be diligent about closing passes immediately upon return vs when i have a free moment. I wish instead it was written as "Child was present for entire class without leaving the room" and I could just put yes/no vs. calculating the percent of time they were present.

Meetings are minimal. As a core teacher I attend more than most I suspect (parents don't want a PE teacher to be present as much as they want math/english), but it's rarely more than once a week. 504s typically last 30 minutes, IEPs last around an hour but if it's not contentious and I've said my piece they will often dismiss me early.

I agree the biggest thing that would help me is smaller class sizes. Everyone would win. Students would have space to move/spread out, I could get to everyone, I'd know the kids better. 25 is the magic tipping point where things become difficult to meet everyone's needs, and my smallest class this year is 29. If I had my way, core on-level classes would be capped at 20. Honors/AP can go higher (the need for remediation tends to be lower), but even they should be capped at 28.

My DC has graduated. When he had an IEP, that called for extended time (and a reader/scribe), any assessments were done in the LD office. The teacher did not have to monitor them, or provide those accommodations. There was always someone from the LD office that did it. This is what happened in MS and HS.

Quoted teacher: What is the “LD office”? I’m on my 4th FCPS middle/high school and am not familiar with that term. Teachers are all responsible for meeting the accommodations on their rosters at my school.

Sometimes I get lucky and a kid has a free period or a strats class and I can borrow that time for the extended time, but usually it’s the advisory/remediation block.

I write math tests I can do in 7-10 minutes. I can’t make them much shorter. Some kids finish in 15. Some kids take the full 90. If I let them have 90, I have to give my 1.5x kids another 45 minutes. The problem is finding those 45 minutes. The alternative is making everyone turn in their tests after 60 minutes and letting my 1.5x kids work to the bell, but that very much puts a spotlight on them that I am hesitant to do.

This explains the uptick in 30 minute unit tests v giving full period of needed for all!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HS math.

It's a lot of prep work ahead of time and a ton of mental load, but not a huge time issue as the year goes on. Seating charts are huge, marking up rosters so when I'm entering grades and Larla's paper is 3 days late I know she has up to 5 days extension and I don't mark it late.

90% of accommodations are things I do for everyone. Copy of teacher notes ahead of time (these are scanned into schoology the day before class generally, paper copies are made for absent students to grab so if an IEP kid needs them they can grab them too), brain breaks (don't we all zone out when we need to?), reminders to stay on task (everyone gets these), etc.

The most challenging accommodation is usually extended time (which almost everyone has by high school, because parents want it for SATs). I *have* to give 1.5x or 2x to those students. That means finding time outside of class to meet with them (impossible), or trying to babysit them during the remediation block (chaos). My go for a while was to shrink assessments to a point where kids can complete it in 30 minutes, so double time is 60 minutes, and I give them 90 minutes so there is no excuse not to finish. I was told that's not meeting the accommodation though unless I physically collect all non extended time assessments after 45 minutes. If I let any gen ed kid have 90 minutes, I have to let any double time student have 180 minutes. That's a lot of makeup time to find when it applies to all classes.

Sometimes a single kid will take up a lot of time, like the year I had a fully blind student in my AP math course. Then I had to have everything done 2 weeks in advance to be brailed and modified for their needs. Most of the time though, it's not anything beyond what everyone gets.

Data collection forms can be tedious depending how the goals are written. When they are written well, it is short and sweet. When they are poorly written or on things that are hard to track, it can be more challenging. I have a few kids this year whose goal is attendance (easy, that's in SIS) but one in particular is asking how many minutes they are in class. That's harder, because I have to track every time they are tardy (how much?), go to the bathroom (how long?), go see a counselor, etc. E-hallpass tracks most of it, but I have to look it up and be diligent about closing passes immediately upon return vs when i have a free moment. I wish instead it was written as "Child was present for entire class without leaving the room" and I could just put yes/no vs. calculating the percent of time they were present.

Meetings are minimal. As a core teacher I attend more than most I suspect (parents don't want a PE teacher to be present as much as they want math/english), but it's rarely more than once a week. 504s typically last 30 minutes, IEPs last around an hour but if it's not contentious and I've said my piece they will often dismiss me early.

I agree the biggest thing that would help me is smaller class sizes. Everyone would win. Students would have space to move/spread out, I could get to everyone, I'd know the kids better. 25 is the magic tipping point where things become difficult to meet everyone's needs, and my smallest class this year is 29. If I had my way, core on-level classes would be capped at 20. Honors/AP can go higher (the need for remediation tends to be lower), but even they should be capped at 28.

My DC has graduated. When he had an IEP, that called for extended time (and a reader/scribe), any assessments were done in the LD office. The teacher did not have to monitor them, or provide those accommodations. There was always someone from the LD office that did it. This is what happened in MS and HS.

Quoted teacher: What is the “LD office”? I’m on my 4th FCPS middle/high school and am not familiar with that term. Teachers are all responsible for meeting the accommodations on their rosters at my school.

Sometimes I get lucky and a kid has a free period or a strats class and I can borrow that time for the extended time, but usually it’s the advisory/remediation block.

I write math tests I can do in 7-10 minutes. I can’t make them much shorter. Some kids finish in 15. Some kids take the full 90. If I let them have 90, I have to give my 1.5x kids another 45 minutes. The problem is finding those 45 minutes. The alternative is making everyone turn in their tests after 60 minutes and letting my 1.5x kids work to the bell, but that very much puts a spotlight on them that I am hesitant to do.

This explains the uptick in 30 minute unit tests v giving full period of needed for all!

I have been wondering why my kids’ tests are so short. It stinks because the grade really goes down if they get one question wrong. There really should be a separate place for kids with extended time to take tests, like at colleges. Then the tests can be a standard length.

[Anonymous]

I have been wondering why my kids’ tests are so short. It stinks because the grade really goes down if they get one question wrong. There really should be a separate place for kids with extended time to take tests, like at colleges. Then the tests can be a standard length.


My school does have a dedicated space for students to take tests - whether they need small group accommodations or extended time, or whatever. BUT, that extended time has to come from somewhere - so if they need 135 minutes for a test, they are using the 90 minutes of my class, but then 35 minutes of their next class. So even with a dedicated space, there are challenges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I have been wondering why my kids’ tests are so short. It stinks because the grade really goes down if they get one question wrong. There really should be a separate place for kids with extended time to take tests, like at colleges. Then the tests can be a standard length.


My school does have a dedicated space for students to take tests - whether they need small group accommodations or extended time, or whatever. BUT, that extended time has to come from somewhere - so if they need 135 minutes for a test, they are using the 90 minutes of my class, but then 35 minutes of their next class. So even with a dedicated space, there are challenges.

If teachers give a test allowing full class period to complete, how do students/teachers/MS & HS coordinate and manage? Do students get to pick what class they miss to continue taking test with the extra time? If a student has multiple tests same day, do some students only go to 2 classes that day and miss the rest? Do teachers have extra obligations when a student misses if part of accommodation v other reason for absence? If teacher contracts only to 3:30, how do students and teachers not just get impossibly behind?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have been wondering why my kids’ tests are so short. It stinks because the grade really goes down if they get one question wrong. There really should be a separate place for kids with extended time to take tests, like at colleges. Then the tests can be a standard length.


My school does have a dedicated space for students to take tests - whether they need small group accommodations or extended time, or whatever. BUT, that extended time has to come from somewhere - so if they need 135 minutes for a test, they are using the 90 minutes of my class, but then 35 minutes of their next class. So even with a dedicated space, there are challenges.

If teachers give a test allowing full class period to complete, how do students/teachers/MS & HS coordinate and manage? Do students get to pick what class they miss to continue taking test with the extra time? If a student has multiple tests same day, do some students only go to 2 classes that day and miss the rest? Do teachers have extra obligations when a student misses if part of accommodation v other reason for absence? If teacher contracts only to 3:30, how do students and teachers not just get impossibly behind?

You have identified succinctly why most teachers have gone to shorter assessments. It is physically not possible to find the extended time. And it's not just a few kids, it's 25% of some classes. A child cannot miss core classes to take a test from a different course. They cannot be pulled from electives because that's "punishing". I get it. But that leaves only the remediation block (when presumably they are trying to catch up on 4+ classes), or after school (when teachers and kids have other commitments).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have been wondering why my kids’ tests are so short. It stinks because the grade really goes down if they get one question wrong. There really should be a separate place for kids with extended time to take tests, like at colleges. Then the tests can be a standard length.


My school does have a dedicated space for students to take tests - whether they need small group accommodations or extended time, or whatever. BUT, that extended time has to come from somewhere - so if they need 135 minutes for a test, they are using the 90 minutes of my class, but then 35 minutes of their next class. So even with a dedicated space, there are challenges.

If teachers give a test allowing full class period to complete, how do students/teachers/MS & HS coordinate and manage? Do students get to pick what class they miss to continue taking test with the extra time? If a student has multiple tests same day, do some students only go to 2 classes that day and miss the rest? Do teachers have extra obligations when a student misses if part of accommodation v other reason for absence? If teacher contracts only to 3:30, how do students and teachers not just get impossibly behind?

You have identified succinctly why most teachers have gone to shorter assessments. It is physically not possible to find the extended time. And it's not just a few kids, it's 25% of some classes. A child cannot miss core classes to take a test from a different course. They cannot be pulled from electives because that's "punishing". I get it. But that leaves only the remediation block (when presumably they are trying to catch up on 4+ classes), or after school (when teachers and kids have other commitments).

20 years ago when I started teaching middle school math, I had maybe 4-7 kids TOTAL with IEPs. Back then, 504s were primarily for medical issues, such as severe allergies, seizures, diabetes, etc. The students with extended time (about 2-3 kids at that time) would come back during their study hall blocks and finish the test.

Now it’s unmanageable, tests are built to take 20-30 minutes to avoid scheduling additional time on another day.