Doubt is built into faith because religion is so hard to believe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in radio frequencies?

Do you believe in cell phone frequencies?

Do you believe in oxygen?

These are all things that day to day we can't see, smell, taste, or touch. But they are all around us, in our homes, schools, work. And we weren't always advanced enough to know it existed scientifically.

But we can measure all of those things. Easily.

And we did NOT believe in them until there was evidence they existed.

Bad example.

It's actually an excellent example.

The resurrection of Jesus was witnessed by thousands of people.

No evidence that is true. None. It is a claim in a book. No contemporaneous evidence corroborating documentation for this extraordinary, once in history event.

Bad example, and bad refutation.

That is simply not true. Others outside of the Bible were writing about Jesus, His miracles, resurrection, and followers within 20 years of His death.

False. First please look up the meaning of “contemporaneous”. Then look for non-contemporaneous and there are none of those either. There is only Josephus and that has been shown to likely be a fake, and he didn’t meet Jesus let alone witness the resurrection.

Bad, bad example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in radio frequencies?

Do you believe in cell phone frequencies?

Do you believe in oxygen?

These are all things that day to day we can't see, smell, taste, or touch. But they are all around us, in our homes, schools, work. And we weren't always advanced enough to know it existed scientifically.

But we can measure all of those things. Easily.

And we did NOT believe in them until there was evidence they existed.

Bad example.

It's actually an excellent example.

The resurrection of Jesus was witnessed by thousands of people.

These are all terrible examples. Yes, these are things that cannot be "seen" by the naked eye. However, we don't "believe" they are real. We "know" they are real due to observation and scientific experimentation. If you don't want to "believe" in them, then come up with your own experiments and data that would change scientific consensus.

Beliefs don't work that way. They are not observable. They are not testable.

Also, even if there were "witnesses" to Jesus, 1) none of it was written down by contemporary sources and 2) we know full well that witness testimony is unreliable.

Keep trying believer. The ignorance is clear.

[Anonymous]

Telling believers that doubt is good for faith is just another failsafe built in to religious indoctrination and belief .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Faith enters where we have questions that are not (yet) answered by limits of human knowledge, questions which we are called up on to continue to explore. There is no parallel between fairies and God; people who think that have only scratched the surface of theology or philosophy and are reading ancient theological texts in an often extremely literal way, through a modern linguistic lens.

A good starting point if you want to explore the intersection of faith and reason is to read up on modern theologians of various faith traditions (modern spiritual masters) on the questions of why do we exist and how can we know God/does God exist?

https://orbisbooks.com/collections/series-mod...itual-masters?page=2

So you have to be intellectual and do a lot of reading to understand faith? Why then, are children taught faith? I think because they are gullible and most of them will believe anything adults tell them - like belief in Santa Claus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

Um, sure. I can't see electrons. But I believe they are there. I've never seen a black hole. But I believe one exists.

Or as C. S. Lewis put it, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

Understandably if you haven't had that conversion experience, you won't get it.

More derision from the faithful to those without faith in God: Unless we have the conversion experience, we don't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

Um, sure. I can't see electrons. But I believe they are there. I've never seen a black hole. But I believe one exists.

Or as C. S. Lewis put it, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

Understandably if you haven't had that conversion experience, you won't get it.

+1. For that matter, I've never seen China or the North Pole, either, and I believe they exist.

And why do you think China and the North Pole exist? Because you are taught that in school and you may very well know of people who have actually been there and there are trips there and people from there (China, at least). In other words, there is a lot of proof that these places exist. The black hole and electrons are scientific phenomena - not religious phenomena that we are told that we must believe or else experience eternal punishment, conveniently after we're dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in radio frequencies?

Do you believe in cell phone frequencies?

Do you believe in oxygen?

These are all things that day to day we can't see, smell, taste, or touch. But they are all around us, in our homes, schools, work. And we weren't always advanced enough to know it existed scientifically.

But we can measure all of those things. Easily.

And we did NOT believe in them until there was evidence they existed.

Bad example.

It's actually an excellent example.

The resurrection of Jesus was witnessed by thousands of people.

These are all terrible examples. Yes, these are things that cannot be "seen" by the naked eye. However, we don't "believe" they are real. We "know" they are real due to observation and scientific experimentation. If you don't want to "believe" in them, then come up with your own experiments and data that would change scientific consensus.

Beliefs don't work that way. They are not observable. They are not testable.

To the poster who quoted CS Lewis, while his writing is prosaic, it still provides no reasonable claim in defense of religion. I can make flowery statements too, but they do nothing to support believing in something that doesn't exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in radio frequencies?

Do you believe in cell phone frequencies?

Do you believe in oxygen?

These are all things that day to day we can't see, smell, taste, or touch. But they are all around us, in our homes, schools, work. And we weren't always advanced enough to know it existed scientifically.

But we can measure all of those things. Easily.

And we did NOT believe in them until there was evidence they existed.

Bad example.

It's actually an excellent example.

The resurrection of Jesus was witnessed by thousands of people.

These are all terrible examples. Yes, these are things that cannot be "seen" by the naked eye. However, we don't "believe" they are real. We "know" they are real due to observation and scientific experimentation. If you don't want to "believe" in them, then come up with your own experiments and data that would change scientific consensus.

Beliefs don't work that way. They are not observable. They are not testable.

To the poster who quoted CS Lewis, while his writing is prosaic, it still provides no reasonable claim in defense of religion. I can make flowery statements too, but they do nothing to support believing in something that doesn't exist.

CS Lewis is very famous, though, and people tend to believe what a famous person said, just because they're well known. Plus he's a good writer. He's sold lots of books and he and his heirs probably have gotten rich off of people wanting to believe. Some of his heirs could be non-believers. LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

"the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me."

Why? You can have love, kindness, and compassion without believing in any religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

Maybe you'll be willing to martyr yourself, if called upon, to help save science. You will certainly go straight to heaven, if there is one. If not, you'll have died for a good cause, instead of just dying, as we all eventually do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

Maybe you'll be willing to martyr yourself, if called upon, to help save science. You will certainly go straight to heaven, if there is one. If not, you'll have died for a good cause, instead of just dying, as we all eventually do.

PP to whom you responded.

I am not really attracted to satiating martyr complexes - but we may all well have to make important decisions in the not too distant future about whether to, and how to, stand up for upholding democracy, rule of law and the value of science in just about every aspect of life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

Maybe you'll be willing to martyr yourself, if called upon, to help save science. You will certainly go straight to heaven, if there is one. If not, you'll have died for a good cause, instead of just dying, as we all eventually do.

PP to whom you responded.

I am not really attracted to satiating martyr complexes - but we may all well have to make important decisions in the not too distant future about whether to, and how to, stand up for upholding democracy, rule of law and the value of science in just about every aspect of life.

Keep in mind that you can be a martyr without having a martyr complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve frequently heard that “doubt is a part of faith.” Often it’s said in a very matter of fact way, as if it’s a given.

I just realized that it’s because having faith that God exists is so hard to believe. Can you think of any other beings that you can’t see (e.g., fairies) that you think are real? Or any beings that live in uninhabitable places (e.g., Santa Claus at the North Pole) that you think are real? Of course not. That’s why religion requires faith: Religion allows people to believe in an invisible being who lives in an uninhabitable place.

Belief that being religious is good, also explains why people say things like “his faith is strong” as a positive comment. Still, what it means is that despite people’s better judgement and their adult thinking skills, they manage to hold on to magical thinking in the realm of religion.

If you believe in God, do you have doubts?

If you don’t believe in God, how did you stop? (if you ever believed)

I posted below in other doubt thread but believe it is relevant. Thank you for asking as it represents an interesting conundrum.

Yes I believe n God because I have had many life experiences that confirm her presence in my life and it feels right to me.

To me, doubts are the flip side of faith. They coexist.

However, just as there is no substitute for hard work, there is no substitute for disciplined spiritual practice. You can have both faith and doubts that you are capable of creating good art but there is no substitute for getting into your creative zone and making art that communicates feelings/ places/ people/ moments in time in ways that words can’t express.

Faith and doubts are the co-joined twins inside one’s head that is always chattering away -/ but religious practices (prayer/ worship/ meditation/ sacred music need to be lived). Religious practices represent different forms of knowledge and experience to both faith and doubts.

Similarly, knowledge without compassion and love is meaningless to me. I have studied a lot in my life (advanced degree, multiple undergraduate degrees both practical and theoretical, different languages, and more). However, the pursuit of knowledge without being motivated by love, kindness and compassion seems empty beyond words to me.

I am heart broken about the dismantling of federal government especially medical research, science, and evidence based approaches to public policy. The current chaos and disregard for the many short and long term harms being done is wrong headed in so many ways. I have no doubts that religion is being exploited for an extremely unholy agenda.

I have many doubts about literal interpretations of sacred scriptures that are divorced from social, political and historical contexts. I have few doubts that God’s love, grace and mercy transcends our foolish ways.

Maybe you'll be willing to martyr yourself, if called upon, to help save science. You will certainly go straight to heaven, if there is one. If not, you'll have died for a good cause, instead of just dying, as we all eventually do.

PP to whom you responded.

I am not really attracted to satiating martyr complexes - but we may all well have to make important decisions in the not too distant future about whether to, and how to, stand up for upholding democracy, rule of law and the value of science in just about every aspect of life.

Keep in mind that you can be a martyr without having a martyr complex.

Perhaps but it is certainly not an ambition - many of may need to go there but not sure what the stakes are yet or whether such sacrifices would make any difference. This current post truth society that has been shaped by so much manipulative misinformation that feeds on human weakness s is hard to predict.