How does Circle Seeding help a swimmer???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- its designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

^This. You all like to complain about everything.

[Anonymous]

It benefits the mid-level swimmers by giving them a faster heat. It is disadvantageous for the fastest swimmers, but they will make finals anyway and get their good race there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- it’s designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

Does this mean every meet that contains prelims and finals must use circle seeding? Seems like it would not be terribly useful with younger kids because they can drop so much time quickly and because it may have been some time since they have swum any given event.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- it’s designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

Does this mean every meet that contains prelims and finals must use circle seeding? Seems like it would not be terribly useful with younger kids because they can drop so much time quickly and because it may have been some time since they have swum any given event.

Yes every prelims/finals meet is required to be circle seeded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- it’s designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

Does this mean every meet that contains prelims and finals must use circle seeding? Seems like it would not be terribly useful with younger kids because they can drop so much time quickly and because it may have been some time since they have swum any given event.

Yes every prelims/finals meet is required to be circle seeded.

Is this definitely accurate? I'm not questioning you, but curious if this is an LSC policy, a USA Swimming policy, etc.? I know it's common, but didn't realized it was required.

[Anonymous]

What's the difference in time between "swimming nyur best on your own" vs "being motivated by someone you can see racing against you"?

I'd expect more of an effect from water disturbance from people swimming slightly ahead of you, so it's more fair to have circle seeding because the 8th and 9th fastest swimmers of 24 get to be in the middle of their heat (lane 3) than have 8th in the back of their heat and 9th at the front of their heat.

More generally, even if you don't know *why* a certain heat layout and placement is better or worse for a swimmer, putting rveryone at a similar rank in a similar placement in the pool, is more fair than the arbitrary cuts based on number of lanes. Circle seeding is basically like having 3 separate qualifying races at different pools, and then taking top times.

As with most qualifying rounda in any sport, it's more important to make sure the eventual top potential-winnrs finishers qualify for the final and don't knock each other out in prelims, than it is to make sure the actual 8th best performer gets into the final 8 instead of the 9th best performer.

[Anonymous]

Not PP, but it is a USA Swimming rule - rule 102.5

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/rulebooks/2024-rulebook.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- it’s designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

Does this mean every meet that contains prelims and finals must use circle seeding? Seems like it would not be terribly useful with younger kids because they can drop so much time quickly and because it may have been some time since they have swum any given event.

Yes every prelims/finals meet is required to be circle seeded.

Is this definitely accurate? I'm not questioning you, but curious if this is an LSC policy, a USA Swimming policy, etc.? I know it's common, but didn't realized it was required.

Its in the USA swimming rulebook. The rule was quoted above.

[Anonymous]

Bringing this back because it's JO time for 14U and circle seeding is back, too. I think it's tough on this younger age group because they often don't swim their best times in finals (especially the 11-12s and 10Us, who usually _don't_ get most of their day off after prelims - that morning prelim usually goes to the older age groupers).

DC is trying to drop specific amounts of time in specific events and will not have anyone to push/pace them in prelims when they are physically/mentally fresh (lane assignment won't offset that - they are counting on racing some individual other fast swimmers). I know it's the rule for USA Swimming, but it would be interesting to see statistically what impact the circle seeding really has on the times for the younger groups.

Yes, a good swimmer should be able to put up a good time in the pool by themselves, but these are kids and they're just not there yet. What do you tell your kid (or do in the downtime between prelims and finals) to try to help them plan their races (and stay properly fed and hydrated)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bringing this back because it's JO time for 14U and circle seeding is back, too. I think it's tough on this younger age group because they often don't swim their best times in finals (especially the 11-12s and 10Us, who usually _don't_ get most of their day off after prelims - that morning prelim usually goes to the older age groupers).

DC is trying to drop specific amounts of time in specific events and will not have anyone to push/pace them in prelims when they are physically/mentally fresh (lane assignment won't offset that - they are counting on racing some individual other fast swimmers). I know it's the rule for USA Swimming, but it would be interesting to see statistically what impact the circle seeding really has on the times for the younger groups.

Yes, a good swimmer should be able to put up a good time in the pool by themselves, but these are kids and they're just not there yet. What do you tell your kid (or do in the downtime between prelims and finals) to try to help them plan their races (and stay properly fed and hydrated)?

I had 2 boys recently in 12-14 and frankly i try not to talk much about swimming in btw final and prelims. Are they interested in their heat/lane for finals? Yes. All the swimming stuff, i leave between them and their coach. Yes, I try to make sure they rest and eat, but i don't harp too much about their food choices. Do i tell them good luck, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- its designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

PVS AO here. This is the correct answer. It is about fairness.

Circle seeding also helps keep lane assignments fair. Otherwise, in the example above, the 9 seed is in Lane 9, last heat. The 10 seed is in Lane 5, second last heat. That probably helps the 10 seed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- its designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

PVS AO here. This is the correct answer. It is about fairness.

Circle seeding also helps keep lane assignments fair. Otherwise, in the example above, the 9 seed is in Lane 9, last heat. The 10 seed is in Lane 5, second last heat. That probably helps the 10 seed.

In thinking about this as a former swimmer, I appreciated that if I was seated fourth or fifth or sixth going into prelims (which was often the case) that I still got to swim prelims in a pretty good lane. It’s a way to make sure that your top 8 all get to swim in decent lanes at prelims. When you’re talking about tenths or even hundredths of second separating the first from the eighth seed, these things do matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I get that this is done at championship meets (all of them?) but looking at some of the Winter Classic events in Meet Mobile it seems to do a disservice to some of the swimmers. There are some events where the top 2 swimmers are so much faster than their peers and they are split up in the last two heats. Meaning that every one in their heat is significantly slower. How does that push them to get a faster time?

Looking for the experts to help me out.

its swim rule 102.5- circle seeding of the fastest 3 heats when it is a prelim finals meet. It isn't designed to get the top fastest 2 swimmers to get their 'fastest' time- its designed to give everyone a good shot at making finals. If it is seeded as 'typical' with the 9 fastest kid in the last heat- kid number 10, who might just be .01 seconds slower than kid 9, is seriously disadvantaged by being in a different heat. With circle seeding all 27 top swimmers have a decent shot at making finals- in terms of who is swimming beside them to push them. (I'm using a 9 lane pool example here). In terms of the top two kids not getting their best times in prelims- it just doesn't matter- they are still going to make finals, swim against each other, and get the push they need to get their fasted time.

PVS AO here. This is the correct answer. It is about fairness.

Circle seeding also helps keep lane assignments fair. Otherwise, in the example above, the 9 seed is in Lane 9, last heat. The 10 seed is in Lane 5, second last heat. That probably helps the 10 seed.

In thinking about this as a former swimmer, I appreciated that if I was seated fourth or fifth or sixth going into prelims (which was often the case) that I still got to swim prelims in a pretty good lane. It’s a way to make sure that your top 8 all get to swim in decent lanes at prelims. When you’re talking about tenths or even hundredths of second separating the first from the eighth seed, these things do matter.

PP again. Just to clarify, swimming in the middle lanes is arguably better than having other swimmers to push you in your heat, because of how the waves travel outward from the middle. This matters increasingly more as the swimmers get bigger and older thus creating more powerful waves.