Engineering: Rigor, Grading, and GPAs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

Maybe not T20, but just search. A few that come to mind: WPI, RPI, U Rochester, CWRU, Drexel, RIT, etc. They admit to the university and you can easily switch majors, provided you take the 2-3 entry-level courses and get a C+/B- in those courses (and that is fair). That way yes, your kid can switch around as they find their path. Even better, they can easily switch the type of engineering without having to have a 3.999 to get into BME.

[Anonymous]

In general, the "better" the school, the easier it is to change majors. This applies mostly to private colleges. However, at strong engineering programs at public schools like the UC's, UIUC, Purdue, etc. there is much more gatekeeping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

There are many - probably most - schools that don't admit by major. But it's usually pretty clear on the application whether a student is a likely engineering major. Not too many future sociology majors are taking Multivariable Calculus and AP Physics.

The problem with dilly-dallying once in college are the pre-reqs. Engineering and pre-med share a few classes freshmen year - and they are often weed out classes. But you need those classes to move forward. And engineering in particular has a lot of required classes. It's pretty much impossible to double major. And even a minor is likely to add a semester or two.

Lots of engineering students will change majors after the first semester or two. MIT, Cornell, Rice, CMU might move faster. But there is no such thing as an easy engineering program. It's a grind everywhere. You'll want to deal with the pre-reqs right up front. So even if you are not sure, I'd sign up for them regardless. You'll know within weeks whether you have what it takes to graduate with an engineering degree. They are not messing around. Engineering students are the hardest working students on every campus.

I think freshman year is likely the hardest. It's a shock to the system for everyone. If a student is still in exploratory mode, they'll know by December whether this is for them. There is a lot of suck right up front. But survive it, and then you can really pursue your passions - if indeed those are your passions. Not everyone wants to build a rocket. Or build and design things generally. It's best to get that resolved in the first year. And they certainly won't be the only engineering or pre-med student changing majors after freshman year if they discover it's not for them.

[Anonymous]

There is a difference between colleges which allows anyone to switch into an engineering major and those who make students apply to gain admission to the college of engineering. I know for Ohio State, there are a few direct admits to engineering programs. Everyone else declares a pre-major, then has to apply after meeting requirements.

I

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In general, the "better" the school, the easier it is to change majors. This applies mostly to private colleges. However, at strong engineering programs at public schools like the UC's, UIUC, Purdue, etc. there is much more gatekeeping.

I find it's largely Private vs Public. Most privates are not "direct entry to engineering", but entry to the university and you can easily change majors.
it's the larger state schools with competitive engineering where it's difficult to switch. Most even with "direct admit to engineering" still require students to compete for actual type of engineering majors. Hence why my kids are at smaller private schools---so they can easily switch as needed and can still major in their desired major if they have a challenging semester.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

We encouraged DD to apply to JHU BME because you can always switch out of it if you decide it's not for you, but you can't switch into it if you decide that's what you're interested in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

As a general rule, every schools like to think of themselves as selective so you have to play the game - apply to a particular major, write about why you are "passionate" about that major, etc. But once admitted, a lot of the Private schools ranked 50+ let you change majors easily. It's not uniform so research each school you are interested in. Among the publics, Ohio State lets you get in (any major) and change to any other major before you begin school. It's also easy enough to switch between majors once you have started but obviously the later you switch, the more time you have to spend. Same thing goes for JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

Maybe not T20, but just search. A few that come to mind: WPI, RPI, U Rochester, CWRU, Drexel, RIT, etc. They admit to the university and you can easily switch majors, provided you take the 2-3 entry-level courses and get a C+/B- in those courses (and that is fair). That way yes, your kid can switch around as they find their path. Even better, they can easily switch the type of engineering without having to have a 3.999 to get into BME.

Unique to WPI is the 7-week, 4-term system, plus 2 option summer terms, and the ability to erase a few classes if you bomb them (and retake or make a change). While the 7-week system is intense and really, really fast-paced (think of the hardest class you took and squeeze it into 7 weeks), it does let you figure out quickly if a certain path is not going to work for you, and then you have plenty time to make a change, erase the error, and use the optional summer session to catch up in a different area. They also give a lot of flexibility to take courses in an order that makes sense to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This post is mostly intended for parents of current E School students or parents of HS students planning to go to E School.

Many Engineering schools do not have (much) grade inflation. Most E Schools grade each course on a curve. Often grades are curved to a 3.1 or 3.0 median grade, which means a fair number of students in a class will get a B- or C+.

Even those with lower GPAs will be able to get a good job after graduating with an engineering degree.

Parents ought not freak out if their E School kid does not have a top GPA. Parents should be supportive of all their college students, and a struggling E School student might need more support than some others.

All ABET accredited E Schools will have similar coursework with similar rigor. Very top schools like MIT/CalTech do not bother with ABET, but obviously they also are rigorous. Afternoons often will be spent in graded labs.

All this rigor means the E School college experience often has both less free time and less flexible time than students in Arts & Letters will have. E School is a hard slog for virtually any student with Feynman being the exception who proved the rule. When I was in E School, I only took off Friday night and Saturday night (and Sunday morning for church). Otherwise, it was mostly eat, sleep, or academics.

Students planning to apply to E School should try to take rigorous math, physics, and chemistry classes in HS. Calculus is essential, but getting an A in Calc AB is probably better than a C in Calc BC. Students with no calculus likely will struggle if they even are admitted.

Two engineers different schools and one family member whobhas taught at NC State and Cornell and others, has tenure at a different ivy. The rigor is no where near the same. Not close. At all. Top schools get the brightest students and the professors can and do move fast and expect more. The curriculum of one semester physics was covered in the first half a semester at the top school, similar situation with calculus pacing.

lol no
I have an NC state graduate and MIT and Cornell .

My NC state graduates career has by far surpassed their siblings. His grades at undergrad were at 2.8.
Grad school he went skiing went to univ of Co Boulder his success is his own CTO age 34 he’s doing just fine .

Calculus is calculus is calculus.

Do my other engineers have good jobs or careers yes but where their job trajectories better no.

While I’m not a fan of NC state for many reasons the engineering school is good so is the school of Textiles. The internship’s from no state were no better than the others l


Careers are about choices hard work and continuation of learning not whether you went to a better college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

Maybe not T20, but just search. A few that come to mind: WPI, RPI, U Rochester, CWRU, Drexel, RIT, etc. They admit to the university and you can easily switch majors, provided you take the 2-3 entry-level courses and get a C+/B- in those courses (and that is fair). That way yes, your kid can switch around as they find their path. Even better, they can easily switch the type of engineering without having to have a 3.999 to get into BME.

Unique to WPI is the 7-week, 4-term system, plus 2 option summer terms, and the ability to erase a few classes if you bomb them (and retake or make a change). While the 7-week system is intense and really, really fast-paced (think of the hardest class you took and squeeze it into 7 weeks), it does let you figure out quickly if a certain path is not going to work for you, and then you have plenty time to make a change, erase the error, and use the optional summer session to catch up in a different area. They also give a lot of flexibility to take courses in an order that makes sense to you.

WPI is a true hidden gem. Many do not know much about it, especially if you are west coast. It was my DD top Safety. She liked it so much it remained in her top 3 final choices for several weeks. But was removed for a few reasons: 1) the other two choices are better schools overall 2) my kid is really smart, massive procrastinator and upon thinking about it realized the 7 week system might not be the best for someone like that. She always gets stuff done and has done well at college, but she realized that a traditional semester is a much better fit for her. 3) where she ultimately ended up is a huge premed and engineering school, but also many students are business and general liberal arts/humanitites majors. For my kid, who is STEM but definately not a STEM nerd, she realized she would fit in better at a school with more balance (she would have been fine at WPI, but would have had to search harder to find her group---the M/F imbalance and the nerdiness of the guys would have made it more difficult) But their system is amazing and we were happy to have it as her Top Safety (she got $28K in merit so that is good as well).

[Anonymous]

In my Calc 101 class in Engineering School, a raw score of 50 was an A, a 40 was a B, and a 30 was still passing. Tests in engineering often were like that, where the tests were amazingly hard, but then curved to a 3.0 median grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for this. My dd is considering engineering majors but I am in the natural sciences and engineering is totally foreign to me. I even find it strange that you have to apply to specific programs during the admissions process (e.g., jhu and bme). How are these kids supposed to know what field they want to be in as a teenager?

BTW, I'm thankful that E schools are resisting grade inflation. Our bridges need to stand, after all.

The vast majority of elite schools do not require applying to a specific major. Most but not all require applying to the engineering school but even then switching majors all around or switching out or into the E school is easy. No gpa-gate-keeping into majors. The hard part is getting in to these E schools. Jhu bme is the rate exception among T20 private E-programs

What universities which offer engineering admit dont admit by major? We have a child who doesn't know if he wants to study math or engineering, or even a science. We are looking for schools where he just obtains school admission then has option to change the major depending on how much he likes it. Is there a list out there?

Tons. Go school by school and see for yourself.
Wake (ABET accredited now), Dartmouth, swarthmore, Brown, Harvard, Yale, MIT….

[Anonymous]

My DS recently graduated along with four of his cousins, and here are the stats:

- DS: Computer Engineering degree from UVA; 3.8 GPA; two internships in sophomore and junior; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #1: CS degree from Cornell; 3.5 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #2: CS degree from Virginia Tech; 3.7 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #3: CS degree from Northwestern; 3.3 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking; (OOS tuition)

- Cousin #4: CS degree from University of Michigan; 3.5 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking; (OOS tuition),

- Cousin #5: CS degree from George Mason; 3.9 GPA; one internship in sophomore year; is currently working for a healthcare provider that pays him 125k/year,

​Based on the small sample size above, it really does not matter where you go to school for Engineering or CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This post is mostly intended for parents of current E School students or parents of HS students planning to go to E School.

Many Engineering schools do not have (much) grade inflation. Most E Schools grade each course on a curve. Often grades are curved to a 3.1 or 3.0 median grade, which means a fair number of students in a class will get a B- or C+.

Even those with lower GPAs will be able to get a good job after graduating with an engineering degree.

Parents ought not freak out if their E School kid does not have a top GPA. Parents should be supportive of all their college students, and a struggling E School student might need more support than some others.

All ABET accredited E Schools will have similar coursework with similar rigor. Very top schools like MIT/CalTech do not bother with ABET, but obviously they also are rigorous. Afternoons often will be spent in graded labs.

All this rigor means the E School college experience often has both less free time and less flexible time than students in Arts & Letters will have. E School is a hard slog for virtually any student with Feynman being the exception who proved the rule. When I was in E School, I only took off Friday night and Saturday night (and Sunday morning for church). Otherwise, it was mostly eat, sleep, or academics.

Students planning to apply to E School should try to take rigorous math, physics, and chemistry classes in HS. Calculus is essential, but getting an A in Calc AB is probably better than a C in Calc BC. Students with no calculus likely will struggle if they even are admitted.

What about AP computer science for a prospective mechanical engineering major? Trying to figure out if my son should take this as a senior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DS recently graduated along with four of his cousins, and here are the stats:

- DS: Computer Engineering degree from UVA; 3.8 GPA; two internships in sophomore and junior; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #1: CS degree from Cornell; 3.5 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #2: CS degree from Virginia Tech; 3.7 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking,

- Cousin #3: CS degree from Northwestern; 3.3 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking; (OOS tuition)

- Cousin #4: CS degree from University of Michigan; 3.5 GPA; one internship in junior year; is currently jobless and looking; (OOS tuition),

- Cousin #5: CS degree from George Mason; 3.9 GPA; one internship in sophomore year; is currently working for a healthcare provider that pays him 125k/year,

​Based on the small sample size above, it really does not matter where you go to school for Engineering or CS.

did DS and all cousins graduate from same year? what years did they graduate? interesting all did CS.