what quantitative skills are needed for social sciences jobs (political science, IR)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have an IR major at WM. She is required to take 5 Econ classes to get an IR degree: macro, micro, intermediate and advanced macro OR intro and advanced micro and comparative econ. Plus, research methods is also required. The Econ classes, in turn, have required a semester of stats, and she also ended up retaking Calc to help with the advanced Econ. And somewhere in there a semester of data science, which was helpful, but not required. This isn’t to minor in Econ or get a leg up. In fact, her second major is a Critical foreign language. This is just to get a basic IR the degree. So, that’s 8-9 semesters of quant heavy class work for the major.

💯

WM trains kids rigorously to be competitive for these roles in dc — not sure if OP’s son is at a school like that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is a second year college student and recently declared an international relations major (I would not be surprised if he winds up switching to political science because of the IR language requirement, and their true interest is international politics which major doesn't exist at their college).

I'm a lawyer and spouse is an accountant, and we don't have friends in the fields that may spin from these majors (to be honest I'm not even exactly sure which jobs those may be, but I'm trusting that DC will figure it out with help from the college career center). But everything I read and hear is that strong quantitative skills are what even the social science fields are looking for these days. At DC's college, there are very little quantitative requirements to satisfy these majors - I think poli sci and IR eac require one research based class (which is incorporated into a topical class, not even research in of itself as a class), and IR also requires a basic econ class. That's it.

DS is actually strong in math, he just doesn't love it so isn't interest in taking the classes. We're going to encourage him to build strong quantitative skills to make himself in either of these majors more marketable, but neither spouse nor I are sure what to advise. An economics minor is very light in quant based classes. His college doesn't have a statistics minor. I don't think I could ever convince DS to consider a math or comp sci minor (he has very little comp sci skills).

For those of you hiring grads in the IR and poli sci fields (political risk analysts, whatever these jobs are), what do you look for with respect to quant skills in your applicants? Specific majors/minors (if so, which ones), or proficiency in certain coding, or what else Also, can these skills be acquired via taking certain classes you consider "musts" (e.g., econometrics) vs needing certain majors/minors.

Thanks for any advice. We are suggesting DC discuss more with his advisor, but he did when he declared the major and the adviser didn't seem focused on quant skills at all (maybe b/c they were educated at a different time, and are in academic vs professional world?).

Your kid is gonna be going up against people who are graduating from programs like this:

https://sfs.georgetown.edu/academics/undergraduate/majors/ipol/

I would suggest your kid to major in econ and NOT polisci

IR/Polisci is not for lower tier school kids

I do appreciate everyone’s candor. I am a little thrown for DS’s sake of statements like these, I admit. DS is at a fine college but not Georgetown level, but wouldn’t he competing for jobs against Georgetown students no matter what his major is? Is your point that IR and poli sci are “soft” majors so where you got the degree matters more versus if he majored in comp sci anywhere? That’s disappointing to hear.

PS - Reading that SFS page, the IR major (whatever they call it) seems very pre-professional there (eg, they learn to write white papers and memos), and it definitely is not at DS’s college.

- OP

1. No - if he wants to teach history in ms/hs, he can augment his ir degree with an education degree and won’t be competing vs gtown grads

2. Yes, ir is very very elitist

That’s not to say there aren’t “lower tier” alums in ir related Jobs but since the space is hotly desired, you have elite school alums take lowly paid jobs to get their foot in the door

Esp if you aren’t former .mil , can’t speak a valuable language etc

3. If he is outgoing (and bonus points if he is good looking), campaign work would be a more convex path than fighting for a brookings/csis/cfr internship with 2000 other applicants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have an IR major at WM. She is required to take 5 Econ classes to get an IR degree: macro, micro, intermediate and advanced macro OR intro and advanced micro and comparative econ. Plus, research methods is also required. The Econ classes, in turn, have required a semester of stats, and she also ended up retaking Calc to help with the advanced Econ. And somewhere in there a semester of data science, which was helpful, but not required. This isn’t to minor in Econ or get a leg up. In fact, her second major is a Critical foreign language. This is just to get a basic IR the degree. So, that’s 8-9 semesters of quant heavy class work for the major.

OP here. That does sound rigorous and very useful. How many classes are required for the major? And it it all prescribed or do they have electives? It is usually only about 12 classes for a major at DS’s college, and the IR major at his college is a pretty evenly divided mix of poli sci, history, culture, and econ classes (with a separate world language requirement).

DS is at a strong program (top 10 for IR although that is probably pretty meaningless for undergrads) but it doesn’t have most of those requirements - intro to econ and international econ are the only required econ classes for the major.

Interestingly, I just looked at the course catalog and advanced micro and macro aren’t even required for econ majors at his college - and I don’t even think comparative econ is offered as a class there. Although it’s possible this is just a difference in semantics (maybe basic micro/macro at W&M are the same as the basic econ class at DS’s college, and advanced macro/micro at W&M are the same as what DS’s college calls
just macro/micro? Just speculating, as it would seem unusual for an IR major to have more rigorous econ requirements than an econ major.)

[Anonymous]

I just reviewed a few undergrad IR programs and the IR program at DS’s college is structured very similarly to the undergrad IR program at Johns Hopkins. Neither undergrad program is very quant focused (unless you want to self-create a quant focus as your “specialty” within the IR major).

Anyway, I will encourage DS to consider adding some econ classes, and maybe MV and linear algebra as a poster suggested.

Thanks, all!

- OP

[Anonymous]

IR is a field where most people have graduate degrees. Don't worry, OP, about PP's contention that "lower tier" poli-sci grads will be competing with Georgetown kids for jobs. Um, no. What's most important is the graduate school they go to.

[Anonymous]

I'm going to take a contrary view to all the quant boosters on this thread, some of whom are wildly overstating how relevant a few stats or econ classes will be. Here are my bonafides: I have an undergrad degree in IR and a PhD from a professional school of IR. I've worked in government and the private sector and think tanks. In my current role I hire entry level staff (as well as more senior people) who are pursuing careers in international affairs.

Fwiw, quantitative skills and training are absolutely essential for any polisci/IR PhD program or academic career today. And they can be useful for early career hiring or finding a place in a competitive marketplace. But most entry-level jobs related to IR are not going to require econ or statistics, and as a minor or a concentration within an IR or polisci degree, a handful of undergraduate stats or econ classes aren't going to be a ticket to a first job or a high-paying career. Few employers will look at undergrad transcripts as part of the hiring process. If stats or math classes are going to bring down the GPA, I doubt it's worth the tradeoff.

Most entry-level jobs related to IR will be highly generalist; the most important skills will be basic stuff, like attention to detail, follow-through, timeliness, and strong writing skills. Serious language skills, esp in critical languages, will be a big asset - but that means real proficiency. Depending on what your kid is interested in doing, internships are going to be a big boost to finding a first job. That first job should hopefully give him or her a good basis for figuring out how to become competitive for the next jobs. Networking is essential. Eventually they will need some kind of graduate degree - can be an IR MA or a policy MPP, JD or MBA, or other pathways.

If your kid wants to do some math, by all means they should do it - but don't sentence your kids to a lot of quantitative coursework under the illusion that it will somehow catapult them into a more successful/more lucrative career path straight out of undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Interesting to me that you as a lawyer don’t know anyone who had a political science major. I was a political science major and half my classmates are now lawyers.

(I took a real turn to tech that didn’t exist when I was in college)

[Anonymous]

Agree with the PP above. I was a history major turned lawyer and almost all my law school classmates came from poli sci or English.

It would be helpful to know what your son wants to do… PPs are correct: IR is prestigious and posh. It is also very international. SFS’ student body is at least half foreign students.

But wanting to teach v work for government v foreign service v finance are very different things and will require very different backgrounds.

Also surprised no one has mentioned yet that this is really his problem, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting to me that you as a lawyer don’t know anyone who had a political science major. I was a political science major and half my classmates are now lawyers.

(I took a real turn to tech that didn’t exist when I was in college)

I’m sure I have many friends and colleagues who were political science majors, and I have friends who work for DOJ, lobbyists, etc. What I do not have are friends, colleagues or former classmates who majored or work in IR or international politics which is what my son is interested in.
- OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to take a contrary view to all the quant boosters on this thread, some of whom are wildly overstating how relevant a few stats or econ classes will be. Here are my bonafides: I have an undergrad degree in IR and a PhD from a professional school of IR. I've worked in government and the private sector and think tanks. In my current role I hire entry level staff (as well as more senior people) who are pursuing careers in international affairs.

Fwiw, quantitative skills and training are absolutely essential for any polisci/IR PhD program or academic career today. And they can be useful for early career hiring or finding a place in a competitive marketplace. But most entry-level jobs related to IR are not going to require econ or statistics, and as a minor or a concentration within an IR or polisci degree, a handful of undergraduate stats or econ classes aren't going to be a ticket to a first job or a high-paying career. Few employers will look at undergrad transcripts as part of the hiring process. If stats or math classes are going to bring down the GPA, I doubt it's worth the tradeoff.

Most entry-level jobs related to IR will be highly generalist; the most important skills will be basic stuff, like attention to detail, follow-through, timeliness, and strong writing skills. Serious language skills, esp in critical languages, will be a big asset - but that means real proficiency. Depending on what your kid is interested in doing, internships are going to be a big boost to finding a first job. That first job should hopefully give him or her a good basis for figuring out how to become competitive for the next jobs. Networking is essential. Eventually they will need some kind of graduate degree - can be an IR MA or a policy MPP, JD or MBA, or other pathways.

If your kid wants to do some math, by all means they should do it - but don't sentence your kids to a lot of quantitative coursework under the illusion that it will somehow catapult them into a more successful/more lucrative career path straight out of undergrad.

I appreciate this thorough response! And it makes common sense to me. GPA matters most and a few extra econ classes in undergrad won’t make or break a hiring.

What quant skills do you look for when hiring out entry level or intern positions? And how would you advise a college student to gain quant skills useful in the professional IR field. Thanks!

-OP

[Anonymous]

Some Psychology subsets involve much more science and quantitative analysis that it’s almost laughable they’re considered psychology( usually only in undergrad). Psych also skews heavily towards stats and technical writing. Look at classes like behavioral psychology, data analyses and interpretation, statistics, etc. Stay away from classes that talk about psychoanalysis, social psych, environmental psych, etc. He should find the professor that teaches intro to behavior analysis and talk to them during office hours. Applied Behavior Analysis is actually defined as: the scientific study of human behavior. Much more analytical in nature than “standard psychology”, but still usually grouped under psychology for undergrad. Once you hit grad school Behavior Analysis is usually viewed as a stand-alone science rather than part of psychology.

[Anonymous]

If your son may end up going to grad school, I suggest you look at the Admissions info for some of the top masters programs and see what the application requirements are. There are probably required or recommended courses you need to take to be a competitive applicant. If your son is good at math, then leverage that. A lot of people in this field aren't great at math but do it because they have to (myself included)!

[Anonymous]

How much do people coming out of a good IR program like say WM make a year? What do they do except gov work? are these jobs tied to DC?

[Anonymous]

PhD in poli sci here. Professor and government contractor. If I had an opportunity to do a do o we today, I would learn to program in R. I would get really good at SQL and learn how to manipulate and present data in Tableau. I would make some projects using these skills and have a portfolio available somewhere like GitHub. I would also get certificates through Coursera including the Google data analytics sequence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How much do people coming out of a good IR program like say WM make a year? What do they do except gov work? are these jobs tied to DC?

35-45 k depending on the think tank or go on the hill

It’s a lot more if they don’t want to do ir related jobs and go be a consultant at Deloitte