Acceptance rate vs. ranking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 9th grader and starting to think about college (in the “what should she be doing to be well-positioned” way, not in the “let’s go on college visits” way). We don’t know what her stats will be, though she’s on track to finish first semester with all As and one B (in an AP class). Obviously no test scores yet. In thinking about the types of school she should be targeting, should we be looking at acceptance rate or ranking? For example, I see Tulane mentioned here a lot and I think she’d be interested. Tulane has a low acceptance rate (11%), but it’s ranked 73 by USNWR. Not sure what to make of these different stats.

Why do you think your daughter would be interested in Tulane? That is a much better question to explore than statistics questions.

For example, you could identify a few interest patterns your daughter has, and then make a list of schools that might work. Then ask parents here whether the courses and ECs your daughter already has or plans to have will support her making a case for admission. Their qualitative feedback may give you insights you can use now.

I don't think ranking is very important as a college selection criteria. It's obvious that HYPSM is going to provide very high salaries. But below the very top, there are good schools in every region of the country and statistically the ranking differences just aren't all that meaningful from the standpoint of the student's lived experience.

Also, you could help your daughter buttress her math and math test taking skills now. In my state, the state has mandated the PSAT and then SAT, every year from 8th grade to 11th. So there is already age-appropriate standardized testing out there. Address areas of weakness now to permit better choices later. Even free resources from Khan Academy/College Board could be helpful.

I think she’d be interested in Tulane based on the kids I know who go there/she’s active in a Jewish youth group/etc., but I was using Tulane mostly as an example. It seems like every school is hard to get into now and she’s a good student who is involved in different activities but not on track to win any national awards!

Do not worry. There are the same proportion of normal kids as there used to be. DMV and this board has a high concentration of kids with 1500+ SATs and parents who have strong opinions about where these students should go to school. Actually, I haven't read a ton about nationally significant/ranked talents on here...maybe their parents don't have to worry so don't post.

In the face of fears about college apps, I recommend being genuine. There is an active thread now about the special skill/talent college essay. Read that and reflect on how your child will write something like that in three years.

I also recommend spending more time figuring out "fit" issues. One thing that worked best with my child was watching Youtube videos (reviews) by enrolled students. My kid wasn't interested in websites and paperback books.

Finally, don't place much weight on rankings that differ by 10-20 places...your kid needs to be in a comfortable geography and to find people with aligned interests. You can't really get a sense of school culture from a magazine article or a book. Instead, talk to parents, graduates, current students, etc. Poor fit with school culture can provoke mental health issues, lead to transferring, etc. Much of what is taught at colleges is also fairly similar from school to school. Professor quality, facilities, class size, and peer quality are the things that are more differentiating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 9th grader and starting to think about college (in the “what should she be doing to be well-positioned” way, not in the “let’s go on college visits” way). We don’t know what her stats will be, though she’s on track to finish first semester with all As and one B (in an AP class). Obviously no test scores yet. In thinking about the types of school she should be targeting, should we be looking at acceptance rate or ranking? For example, I see Tulane mentioned here a lot and I think she’d be interested. Tulane has a low acceptance rate (11%), but it’s ranked 73 by USNWR. Not sure what to make of these different stats.

Why do you think your daughter would be interested in Tulane? That is a much better question to explore than statistics questions.

For example, you could identify a few interest patterns your daughter has, and then make a list of schools that might work. Then ask parents here whether the courses and ECs your daughter already has or plans to have will support her making a case for admission. Their qualitative feedback may give you insights you can use now.

I don't think ranking is very important as a college selection criteria. It's obvious that HYPSM is going to provide very high salaries. But below the very top, there are good schools in every region of the country and statistically the ranking differences just aren't all that meaningful from the standpoint of the student's lived experience.

Also, you could help your daughter buttress her math and math test taking skills now. In my state, the state has mandated the PSAT and then SAT, every year from 8th grade to 11th. So there is already age-appropriate standardized testing out there. Address areas of weakness now to permit better choices later. Even free resources from Khan Academy/College Board could be helpful.

I think she’d be interested in Tulane based on the kids I know who go there/she’s active in a Jewish youth group/etc., but I was using Tulane mostly as an example. It seems like every school is hard to get into now and she’s a good student who is involved in different activities but not on track to win any national awards!

Do not worry. There are the same proportion of normal kids as there used to be. DMV and this board has a high concentration of kids with 1500+ SATs and parents who have strong opinions about where these students should go to school. Actually, I haven't read a ton about nationally significant/ranked talents on here...maybe their parents don't have to worry so don't post.

In the face of fears about college apps, I recommend being genuine. There is an active thread now about the special skill/talent college essay. Read that and reflect on how your child will write something like that in three years.

I also recommend spending more time figuring out "fit" issues. One thing that worked best with my child was watching Youtube videos (reviews) by enrolled students. My kid wasn't interested in websites and paperback books.

Finally, don't place much weight on rankings that differ by 10-20 places...your kid needs to be in a comfortable geography and to find people with aligned interests. You can't really get a sense of school culture from a magazine article or a book. Instead, talk to parents, graduates, current students, etc. Poor fit with school culture can provoke mental health issues, lead to transferring, etc. Much of what is taught at colleges is also fairly similar from school to school. Professor quality, facilities, class size, and peer quality are the things that are more differentiating.

OP here. I appreciate this post. I made the mistake of reading the thread about ECs and it seemed like everyone posting had a kid who won some sort of regional or national STEM competition or had started a business or something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

It DCUMland in the country of Statusovia, exclusivity is the only thing that matters, in college, career, Medicare care, restaurant, swimming pool, or anything else. Even price is only a proxy for exclusivity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 9th grader and starting to think about college (in the “what should she be doing to be well-positioned” way, not in the “let’s go on college visits” way). We don’t know what her stats will be, though she’s on track to finish first semester with all As and one B (in an AP class). Obviously no test scores yet. In thinking about the types of school she should be targeting, should we be looking at acceptance rate or ranking? For example, I see Tulane mentioned here a lot and I think she’d be interested. Tulane has a low acceptance rate (11%), but it’s ranked 73 by USNWR. Not sure what to make of these different stats.

Why do you think your daughter would be interested in Tulane? That is a much better question to explore than statistics questions.

For example, you could identify a few interest patterns your daughter has, and then make a list of schools that might work. Then ask parents here whether the courses and ECs your daughter already has or plans to have will support her making a case for admission. Their qualitative feedback may give you insights you can use now.

I don't think ranking is very important as a college selection criteria. It's obvious that HYPSM is going to provide very high salaries. But below the very top, there are good schools in every region of the country and statistically the ranking differences just aren't all that meaningful from the standpoint of the student's lived experience.

Also, you could help your daughter buttress her math and math test taking skills now. In my state, the state has mandated the PSAT and then SAT, every year from 8th grade to 11th. So there is already age-appropriate standardized testing out there. Address areas of weakness now to permit better choices later. Even free resources from Khan Academy/College Board could be helpful.

I think she’d be interested in Tulane based on the kids I know who go there/she’s active in a Jewish youth group/etc., but I was using Tulane mostly as an example. It seems like every school is hard to get into now and she’s a good student who is involved in different activities but not on track to win any national awards!

A 9th grade student with straight As and one B in an AP class.

Everything is still possible.

Depends on her. All the top 30 or so colleges are tough to get into for anyone. Give her a reality check and let her know what it takes. The grades. The rigor. The test scores. The essays. The teacher recommendations. The extraordinary ECs.

It's a lot for a teenager.

There are a few schools - like Tulane, Northeastern, even Chicago - that are a little manipulative with data. I'd focus on fit instead of rankings and admissions percentages.

But it's 9th grade. It's all good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have a 9th grader and starting to think about college (in the “what should she be doing to be well-positioned” way, not in the “let’s go on college visits” way). We don’t know what her stats will be, though she’s on track to finish first semester with all As and one B (in an AP class). Obviously no test scores yet. In thinking about the types of school she should be targeting, should we be looking at acceptance rate or ranking? For example, I see Tulane mentioned here a lot and I think she’d be interested. Tulane has a low acceptance rate (11%), but it’s ranked 73 by USNWR. Not sure what to make of these different stats.

Someone probably has already said this, but Tulane’s current ranking is a function of USNWR changing its ranking criteria this year to more emphasize what would currently be referred to as “equity” components which would have little effect on the quality of education a high stats kid would receive there. In previous years Tulane was consistently ranked much higher.

[Anonymous]

Acceptance rate is the data point to watch, not ranking. Moreso, keep an eye on acceptance rate for ED v RD. Some colleges rely on ED to fill a class. That’s good if you have a fully funded 529, not so good otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Combination of ranking + acceptance rate is a solid overall guideline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

Well in a perfect world it would be. Otherwise it’s meaningless.

So if run a college all I need to do is 10x my applications and freeze the number of seats and the faculty and classes and facilities magically improve?

Just out of curiosity does anyone at US NEWS actually audit the number of applications? Asking for a friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

It DCUMland in the country of Statusovia, exclusivity is the only thing that matters, in college, career, Medicare care, restaurant, swimming pool, or anything else. Even price is only a proxy for exclusivity.

The best college of all admits no students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

In general, it's still the law of supply and demand.
Better the quality of the school, more demand, higher selectivity.

But that isn’t true at a school like Bates or Tulane that take above 80% of the class ED and have ED acceptance rates above or at 50%, then have sub 10% acceptance rate ED. In that case, it means the student body is rich and can ED a school that will be approaching 100k a year when they graduate. Because you can’t tell me the ED pool for Bates or Tulane or some of the their worst offenders is 5x stronger than the RD pool. These schools are just manipulating yield for USNWR rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 9th grader and starting to think about college (in the “what should she be doing to be well-positioned” way, not in the “let’s go on college visits” way). We don’t know what her stats will be, though she’s on track to finish first semester with all As and one B (in an AP class). Obviously no test scores yet. In thinking about the types of school she should be targeting, should we be looking at acceptance rate or ranking? For example, I see Tulane mentioned here a lot and I think she’d be interested. Tulane has a low acceptance rate (11%), but it’s ranked 73 by USNWR. Not sure what to make of these different stats.

Someone probably has already said this, but Tulane’s current ranking is a function of USNWR changing its ranking criteria this year to more emphasize what would currently be referred to as “equity” components which would have little effect on the quality of education a high stats kid would receive there. In previous years Tulane was consistently ranked much higher.

By virtue of manipulating admissions to align with USNWR ranking criteria (taking almost all of the class ED and thus having a strospheric yield, plus making EA/RD admission very easy to access and targeting kids who aren’t academic fits just so they have a lot of kids to reject). Agree that NE and Chicago are also huge offenders in this area, as are a couple of the NESCACs (someone mentioned Bates, which is awful in the admit the whole class ED area. But they aren’t the only high ranking SLAC doing this).

IMO, USNWR rankings have been incredibly damaging for US college admissions. Looking at data is very important. Departmental outcomes? Class size? Retention? 4 and 6 year graduation rates? Salary (depending on major— a musician and a CS major are swimming in different pools)— important. Looking at USNWR and choosing school A over school B solely because one is ranked in the high 30s and the other in the low 50s is lazy and dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There will people who will tell you acceptance rate means nothing and you should not even look at it, but it means a ton. You just need to get used to calibrating raw acceptance rates with yield, ED admissions rate, and percent of class filled ED (and factor in the huge percentage of ED athletes in certain SLACs. Tulane is obviously now underrated by US News, even if you calibrate the acceptance rate by doubling it. Georgetown is underrated, because it has no ED etc.

But how do you factor all of this in? Do schools make all of this information readily available? How does DD know what schools are within a realistic range for her?

How to factor it in? Ask what is important to you and your kid. Strength of individual departments? Location? Class size? Being taught by a professor vs a TA? Big athletics or Greek life? Size? Urban? Rural? Salary— for a major or department, not the whole school (engineering / CS strong schools always have higher salaries. This does not help your history major heading to law school)? PhD production? Law school/ med school admission rates? Etc. Etc.

Plus, look at data that is important and hard to manipulate— freshman retention, percent of kids who transfer out, 4 and 6 year graduation rate.

Look at a variety of sources and rankings and patterns emerge on some of the softer areas, like related be department strength.

Do schools make this available. They should make the hard data available in their common data set (Google “school name common data set”) and the US Dept of Education College Report card. For things like first destination of Bio majors after college, they should make it available if you ask. They certainly gather it. If they say they don’t or are hesitant to provide it, move on.

Realistic range? Part of the CDS is 25%/50%/75% for SAT and ACT. Below 25%, most kids need a legacy/athletics/URM who knows anymore/ national winner of something prestigious hook. Realize GPAs are calculated differently in different places. Once you get access to Naviance, you can set what GPAs are admitted from your school. Remember: these are usually end of senior year GPAs. If AP and honors are weighted, most kids go up .1-.2 senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

Spoiler alert: often, it isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

Well in a perfect world it would be. Otherwise it’s meaningless.

So if run a college all I need to do is 10x my applications and freeze the number of seats and the faculty and classes and facilities magically improve?

Just out of curiosity does anyone at US NEWS actually audit the number of applications? Asking for a friend.

Doubtful. A number of schools have been busted for providing bogus data to USNWR though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a question I ask myself all the time. The rankings/necessary stats/acceptance rates are all over the board. Makes no sense.

It only makes no sense if you think the quality of the school is based on how selective admissions is.

In general, it's still the law of supply and demand.
Better the quality of the school, more demand, higher selectivity.

But that isn’t true at a school like Bates or Tulane that take above 80% of the class ED and have ED acceptance rates above or at 50%, then have sub 10% acceptance rate ED. In that case, it means the student body is rich and can ED a school that will be approaching 100k a year when they graduate. Because you can’t tell me the ED pool for Bates or Tulane or some of the their worst offenders is 5x stronger than the RD pool. These schools are just manipulating yield for USNWR rankings.

Why ton of ED applicants in the first place?
That's demand. I can't blame thess schools managing yield.

What you want to look at is the student stat/quality.
Schools like Tulane has little less quality of student body compared to other elite selective schools.

You take all these into the consideration when you ultimately deciding on a school.