Talk to me about Princeton eating clubs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they snobfests or just basically dining halls?

what do you think? snobfests, all the way.

Not really. About half are open to any students who sign up to eat there and some still have a system that’s equivalent to a fraternity/sorority rush. I’m surprised Eisgruber hasn’t put an end to those clubs but I guess they’re important to some alumni.

They are important to many alumni who have very fond memories of their times at eating clubs, in large part because many bear almost no resemblance to the snobfest OP and others seem to envision. And as for the few clubs that do somewhat match those images, they are very easy to avoid them if that’s your seen.

I have fond memories of Princeton, but the Bicker clubs stood out as places where I felt unseen and unwelcome, as a student from a middle-class background lacking the social connections or capital of classmates from fancier backgrounds. Every year a significant number of undergraduates call on the administration to put an end to Bicker as antithetical to the school’s commitment to diversity, and every year Eisgruber comes up with some reason to do nothing. I guess they can ignore how the reputation of the eating clubs discourages a lot of top kids from even applying to Princeton as long as they’re only admitting 5-6% of applicants, but it likely contributes to the significantly lower volume of applications Princeton receives compared to some of its peer schools.

I don’t agree with painting all bicker clubs with the same brush and, while some alumni would like the university to get rid of bicker (doing so wouldn’t be that easy), I don’t think anywhere near the majority think the university should do that.

If you don’t like the social scene at Ivy or Cottage, don’t go to Ivy and Cottage. I certainly didn’t.

It’s less that Princeton students can avoid Ivy and Cottage if they do choose than that many of the best applicants in the country will avoid Princeton entirely because the reputation for social exclusivity persists. I knew early on I had no interest in Bicker, but I still remember how crushed one of the Jewish kids in our dorm (a tall, gregarious athlete) was when Cottage turned him away, for reasons no one ever knew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they snobfests or just basically dining halls?

what do you think? snobfests, all the way.

Not really. About half are open to any students who sign up to eat there and some still have a system that’s equivalent to a fraternity/sorority rush. I’m surprised Eisgruber hasn’t put an end to those clubs but I guess they’re important to some alumni.

They are important to many alumni who have very fond memories of their times at eating clubs, in large part because many bear almost no resemblance to the snobfest OP and others seem to envision. And as for the few clubs that do somewhat match those images, they are very easy to avoid them if that’s your seen.

I have fond memories of Princeton, but the Bicker clubs stood out as places where I felt unseen and unwelcome, as a student from a middle-class background lacking the social connections or capital of classmates from fancier backgrounds. Every year a significant number of undergraduates call on the administration to put an end to Bicker as antithetical to the school’s commitment to diversity, and every year Eisgruber comes up with some reason to do nothing. I guess they can ignore how the reputation of the eating clubs discourages a lot of top kids from even applying to Princeton as long as they’re only admitting 5-6% of applicants, but it likely contributes to the significantly lower volume of applications Princeton receives compared to some of its peer schools.

True, being another lower middle class student at Princeton, that part was very hard. But extended beyond eating clubs, so I don't think they are the source of the problem as much as a symptom.

I mean, Princeton had some real issues back then, remember the "Third World Center"?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they snobfests or just basically dining halls?

what do you think? snobfests, all the way.

Not really. About half are open to any students who sign up to eat there and some still have a system that’s equivalent to a fraternity/sorority rush. I’m surprised Eisgruber hasn’t put an end to those clubs but I guess they’re important to some alumni.

They are important to many alumni who have very fond memories of their times at eating clubs, in large part because many bear almost no resemblance to the snobfest OP and others seem to envision. And as for the few clubs that do somewhat match those images, they are very easy to avoid them if that’s your seen.

I have fond memories of Princeton, but the Bicker clubs stood out as places where I felt unseen and unwelcome, as a student from a middle-class background lacking the social connections or capital of classmates from fancier backgrounds. Every year a significant number of undergraduates call on the administration to put an end to Bicker as antithetical to the school’s commitment to diversity, and every year Eisgruber comes up with some reason to do nothing. I guess they can ignore how the reputation of the eating clubs discourages a lot of top kids from even applying to Princeton as long as they’re only admitting 5-6% of applicants, but it likely contributes to the significantly lower volume of applications Princeton receives compared to some of its peer schools.

I don’t agree with painting all bicker clubs with the same brush and, while some alumni would like the university to get rid of bicker (doing so wouldn’t be that easy), I don’t think anywhere near the majority think the university should do that.

If you don’t like the social scene at Ivy or Cottage, don’t go to Ivy and Cottage. I certainly didn’t.

It’s less that Princeton students can avoid Ivy and Cottage if they do choose than that many of the best applicants in the country will avoid Princeton entirely because the reputation for social exclusivity persists. I knew early on I had no interest in Bicker, but I still remember how crushed one of the Jewish kids in our dorm (a tall, gregarious athlete) was when Cottage turned him away, for reasons no one ever knew.

So there is a downside to being tall. Who knew ?

[Anonymous]

No one is turning down Princeton because of the eating clubs. There may be legitimate complaints about them, but that isn’t one.

[Anonymous]

The impact of the clubs on social life cannot be understated. There is much that is negative about it. On the other hand, without the clubs, the school has no culture

[Anonymous]

From the looks of the answers not too many DCUM folks go to Princeton. Nothing there that you cant get from regular google or a convo at the tour.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one is turning down Princeton because of the eating clubs. There may be legitimate complaints about them, but that isn’t one.

Princeton has an appreciably lower number of applications than some of its peer schools. The selective eating clubs are part of the reason why.

Now if you get past that, apply, and get in, sure, you’ll probably end up attending and you’ll have a good time. But kids know they are already running the gauntlet just to get into an Ivy. Some don’t want to go through all that and then have to start all over again a few years later having to make the case they deserve to get into Ivy, Cottage, or Cap and Gown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The impact of the clubs on social life cannot be understated. There is much that is negative about it. On the other hand, without the clubs, the school has no culture

That’s not really true. The university has its own distinct culture and the residential colleges provide a sense of community for the first two years. But less so than would be the case if kids weren’t already figuring out by sophomore year how they are going to self-segregate by junior year.

It’s a big enough place and the kids who get in are talented enough that almost everyone finds their niche and ends up having a good experience. But the eating clubs that require kids to Bicker are antiquated relics.

[Anonymous]

No one is turning down Princeton because of the eating clubs. There may be legitimate complaints about them, but that isn’t one.

My kid turned down Princeton for Yale and eating clubs were the determinative factor. They were visiting campus on a weekend when bickering decisions were being made and felt like all the drama was too much and why they had wanted to avoid schools with a big Greek life. They had offers at both schools and that experience clinched it for Yale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The impact of the clubs on social life cannot be understated. There is much that is negative about it. On the other hand, without the clubs, the school has no culture

That’s not really true. The university has its own distinct culture and the residential colleges provide a sense of community for the first two years. But less so than would be the case if kids weren’t already figuring out by sophomore year how they are going to self-segregate by junior year.

It’s a big enough place and the kids who get in are talented enough that almost everyone finds their niche and ends up having a good experience. But the eating clubs that require kids to Bicker are antiquated relics.

Well, I spent four years there and that is my lived experience. I’m sure some of my classmates would disagree. It’s a very stratifying thing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The impact of the clubs on social life cannot be understated. There is much that is negative about it. On the other hand, without the clubs, the school has no culture

Another thing to consider is that they don't join until 2nd semester sophomore year, the uncertainty of which club you can join and whether you'll get a spot at the club you'd like. DC had a friend that didn't get into an eating club he hoped to join with friends and that negatively affected his junior & senior years. There seemed to be a lot riding on it in terms of one's community and social life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The impact of the clubs on social life cannot be understated. There is much that is negative about it. On the other hand, without the clubs, the school has no culture

Another thing to consider is that they don't join until 2nd semester sophomore year, the uncertainty of which club you can join and whether you'll get a spot at the club you'd like. DC had a friend that didn't get into an eating club he hoped to join with friends and that negatively affected his junior & senior years. There seemed to be a lot riding on it in terms of one's community and social life.

I don’t know if things have changed but about half the kids get dinged from the clubs they bicker. It’s relatively humiliating because you then land at a non bicker club. What is humiliating is that not only were you rejected (on the basis of personality or lack thereof) but you don’t even have the excuse of wanting to avoid the stupid system in the first place like kids who went straight to the non-bicker clubs. So it’s like you were a loser first for wanting to be part of the bicker system and then again for being deemed unworthy. It’s a lot for a kid who defied the odds to get into an elite institution like Princeton in the first place to handle. And then you spend 2.5 years avoiding all the people who rejected you (and them avoiding you).

[Anonymous]

Princeton students have many different experiences with eating clubs and the clubs have a wide range of personalities and vibes. As an alum who did get caught up in wanting to be in a selective club in the 90s and who was not successful with bicker, I can tell you it was an awful experience that cast a shadow over my time there. I wish I had had enough maturity to reject the bicker process and just do a lottery club, but I didn’t at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Princeton students have many different experiences with eating clubs and the clubs have a wide range of personalities and vibes. As an alum who did get caught up in wanting to be in a selective club in the 90s and who was not successful with bicker, I can tell you it was an awful experience that cast a shadow over my time there. I wish I had had enough maturity to reject the bicker process and just do a lottery club, but I didn’t at the time.

+1

[Anonymous]

You should also be aware that if you send your DD to Princeton and she wants to be part of the bicker scene, she will spending much of her freshman and first semester sophomore year getting drunk and hooking up with the boys in the club she’s targeting. It’s kind of gross in retrospect