What $400k Gets You in Baltimore

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why more people who work in-person 3x/week don’t just commute via Amtrak.

A big factor for me is the VAST majority of job growth in this metro area is happening in NoVA and I expect that trend to continue. Then some in DC, and very little job growth in MD.

So if i bought in Baltimore based on a hybrid work schedule at an office walkable from Union Station in DC, I guess it could work, but what happens when my spouse gets a new job offer in Arlington or Tysons Corner 3 years later in NoVA?

Also the Amtrak commute is pretty long, unless you happen to live 3 blocks from the station in Baltimore and work near Union Station in DC.

No business is not coming to VA. Youngkin made sure of that didn't he?

MD just added a ton of jobs National Security Cyber Security hiring like crazy. And Sciences and pharma, etc.

Hogan is thankfully gone.

Lol. BLS says Virginia added 96k civilian jobs in 2022 while Maryland added 8k. Yes, you read that right. Virginia added more than 10 times as many jobs last year

Nope, your numbers are wrong.

MD added 53K jobs: https://mwejobs.maryland.gov/admin/gsipub/htmlarea/uploads/MonthlyLaborReview12_Dec22.pdf (slide 2)

VA did indeed add 96K, about one third of which were in Nova: https://www.vec.virginia.gov/latest-release

Remember that MD is a smaller state by population than VA (VA is about 50% bigger). So proportionally VA did better, but only slightly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why more people who work in-person 3x/week don’t just commute via Amtrak.

A big factor for me is the VAST majority of job growth in this metro area is happening in NoVA and I expect that trend to continue. Then some in DC, and very little job growth in MD.

So if i bought in Baltimore based on a hybrid work schedule at an office walkable from Union Station in DC, I guess it could work, but what happens when my spouse gets a new job offer in Arlington or Tysons Corner 3 years later in NoVA?

Also the Amtrak commute is pretty long, unless you happen to live 3 blocks from the station in Baltimore and work near Union Station in DC.

No business is not coming to VA. Youngkin made sure of that didn't he?

MD just added a ton of jobs National Security Cyber Security hiring like crazy. And Sciences and pharma, etc.

Hogan is thankfully gone.

So why is housing an hour from DC in NoVA much more expensive than housing in MD around Baltimore (equivalent distance to DC)?

While this has some merit, I don't think that data point is a super fair comparison, given self-selection tendencies. You have a lot more "DC people" moving outside of DC to Virginia as opposed to up to Baltimore. Baltimore feels like another city, while NoVa is definitely considered a DC suburb for quite some ways out. That said, BLS has some stats that show there isn't a slam dunk in either direction re: job/employment growth (yet). Lots of think pieces though, ha.

FWIW, we made the decision to leave DC for Baltimore and are very happy--but we did so because of ties to the area and some particulars about our career. Its not for everyone and obviously a couple needs to be on the same page on whether, or if, they'd ever want to work in Arlington, etc. before moving. I'd do it if I absolutely had to--meaning no other job choices and we needed the money--but that is not something we'd ever be interested in unless we got to a breaking point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(1) What do you do when your kids are out of elementary school? Yes, private schools in Baltimore are cheaper than in DC but they are not free. And property taxes are high and housing does not appreciate the way it does here.

(2) You could stretch this budget a smidge and get a similarly sized condo in DC or close in suburbs, with better MS/HS options, lower taxes, and better likelihood of appreciation.

(3) Roland Park is tricky. There are a lot of genuinely rich people there. Yes, there are MC and UMC families as well, especially as you go south towards Hampden. But it's not an easy neighborhood to just move to out of the blue without a real connection to the city. This is true throughout Baltimore. Unlike DC where people move here from all over all the time, Baltimore has far fewer transplants and a lot of lifers. It can be hard to build community there.

(4) For the people suggesting that if you work remotely much of the time, this is an easy commute to DC, it's not! First off, this house is nowhere near Penn Station, so it's going to take you 20-30 minutes just to get to the train station. Then, while there are a lot of Marc trains daily (though less than pre-Covid), most are locals and take a good hour each way. The train is also not free, and those add up, especially because if you are not commuting daily, the monthly passes just don't make any sense at all. It's a lot of time in transit, especially if you are doing it twice a week. If you have young kids, that's going to feel like an incredibly long day.

I love Baltimore and we've looked at this option a bunch of times, but it's very hard to make it make sense financially. You see the sticker price on houses and think "oh this is so much cheaper, we can buy so much more with our money there." But when you get into nuts and bolts, it only makes sense if you really, really want to live in Baltimore, and most people who really want to be in Baltimore have some kind of history with the city.

Also, if I DID buy in Baltimore, you can do a lot better than this weird small house. It's fine (I don't think it's terrible) but if you are going to buy in Baltimore for the discount, buy something great! There are so many incredibly charming houses there with original details and terrific yards, etc. This house does not cut it, sorry. It will go for asking because of the neighborhod/schools, but the house itself is nothing to get excited about.

There is a bus that goes 0.2 miles from this house to Penn Station in Baltimore.

That's your only response? Still going to take you time to walk to the bus stop, wait, and ride the bus to Penn.

[Anonymous]

Marylander here who lived in Baltimore who lives in nova.

1). The tax rates are high but you do get a “homesteader” credit which makes the taxes less ridiculous.

2) Baltimore is affordable. But the city has been falling apart since 2012/Freddie Gray because it’s unable to attract high salaries to live there. And unless they get some magic tube into DC for commuters it will be very difficult to persuade people to move out there. (I also blame Hogan to a large extent too. He really effed up Baltimore.)

3) Raising a family is not as easy as say NOVA or HoCo. I say this because the city lacks amenities for families (the sheer amount of sports and camps offered in FCPS compared to Baltimore comes to mind). But it is a tough city to live in also because the city doesn’t have enough amenities to help those there.


We did it for 10 years in our 20s and the property we purchased there never recouped the money we spent on it. And this was after another 10 years of renting it out and selling it during the Covid boom.

Nova honestly has a better chance of a decent ROI than Baltimore.

And if anyone is going to defend Baltimore it’s me. I tried my best to try to get Baltimore to do year round school (not the weird ones in NC but school all year round with no more than a two week break here or there) because of the poverty and crime in that area. People kept complaining about how there is no money for it and yet: every summer crime goes up.

And so because of that dysfunction (and effed up racism which is another long rant) I left.

[Anonymous]

Look what $650k gets you in Baltimore...
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/108-Homeland-Ave-Baltimore-MD-21212/36622162_zpid/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look what $650k gets you in Baltimore...
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/108-Homeland-Ave-Baltimore-MD-21212/36622162_zpid/

Again, it's Baltimore....


Yeah, that $650k house also comes with a $12k+ property tax, lol. What a joke. Almost no appreciation over 10 years too.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be such a snobbery about NOVA being better than Baltimore. The area where that $650k home is, is beautiful and very nice. It's not the inner city, near a lot of really cool stuff. The issue with the area, however, is that it has a fantastic K-8 school, but the high school is awful. So, what you save in housing costs, you'll probably end up spending on private school tuition if you have children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be such a snobbery about NOVA being better than Baltimore. The area where that $650k home is, is beautiful and very nice. It's not the inner city, near a lot of really cool stuff. The issue with the area, however, is that it has a fantastic K-8 school, but the high school is awful. So, what you save in housing costs, you'll probably end up spending on private school tuition if you have children.

Heres a $650k house in Fairfax:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10917-Adare-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22032/51891993_zpid/

Nothing you can ever say will convince anyone that the Baltimore house with $5k more in property tax per year is worth it. Do you just like throwing money downa black hole of taxes they provides negative ROI? It's not like you even get anything for your taxes in Baltimore too.

Here's a $650k home in Cstonsville, MD right over the border:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/216-Rosewood-Ave-Catonsville-MD-21228/36201422_zpid/?

OK elementary school and $7k less per year property tax than Baltimore. You can enjoy all of the amenities in Baltimore and avoid all of the taxes by driving 10 extra minutes.

It just makes zero sense to live in Baltimore with nose bleed taxes, getting back nothing for those taxes, high crime, corrupt police, terrible infrastructure, and terrible schools. I mean I suppose there are people out there who like to pay $5-10k more in taxes for no reason at all other than to be 10 minutes closer to amenities, but to me it seems like an extremely foolish financial decision. Baltimore will go nowhere until they drastically cut their property taxes like Boston and SF did to revive their cities. Baltimore's taxes should be cut in half to start.

[Anonymous]

Ugly house. Just live in HoCo and take the commuter bus to DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be such a snobbery about NOVA being better than Baltimore. The area where that $650k home is, is beautiful and very nice. It's not the inner city, near a lot of really cool stuff. The issue with the area, however, is that it has a fantastic K-8 school, but the high school is awful. So, what you save in housing costs, you'll probably end up spending on private school tuition if you have children.

Heres a $650k house in Fairfax:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10917-Adare-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22032/51891993_zpid/

Nothing you can ever say will convince anyone that the Baltimore house with $5k more in property tax per year is worth it. Do you just like throwing money downa black hole of taxes they provides negative ROI? It's not like you even get anything for your taxes in Baltimore too.

Here's a $650k home in Cstonsville, MD right over the border:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/216-Rosewood-Ave-Catonsville-MD-21228/36201422_zpid/?

OK elementary school and $7k less per year property tax than Baltimore. You can enjoy all of the amenities in Baltimore and avoid all of the taxes by driving 10 extra minutes.

It just makes zero sense to live in Baltimore with nose bleed taxes, getting back nothing for those taxes, high crime, corrupt police, terrible infrastructure, and terrible schools. I mean I suppose there are people out there who like to pay $5-10k more in taxes for no reason at all other than to be 10 minutes closer to amenities, but to me it seems like an extremely foolish financial decision. Baltimore will go nowhere until they drastically cut their property taxes like Boston and SF did to revive their cities. Baltimore's taxes should be cut in half to start.

Thanks for the examples. That house in Fairfax is ugly on the outside and has the horrendous grey flooring on the side, and is also considerably smaller. If you're going to send a comp, at least make it a true comp.

I also believe Fairfax has a lot more to offer than Baltimore, especially for young families, but to completely blanketly describe Baltimore as all of those terrible things is not fair and ignorant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why more people who work in-person 3x/week don’t just commute via Amtrak.

Assuming you work in downtown DC, the listed house requires you to walk to a bus, take a bus to Penn Station, take a MARC train to Union Station, take the Metro to Metro Center then walk to your office. Google Maps said this take 2 hours and 2 minutes each way at a minimum, so if you had you be in the office by 9am with time built in for delays you'd have to leave your house at 6:31am meaning you'd have to wake up around 5:30am every day to spend 4 hours minimum on a combination of two buses, two commuter trains, and two Metro trips, all of which have to potential for delays plus 8.5-9 hours of work when you take lunch into account. So even on the best days you're getting up at 5:30am and getting home around 8pm., leaving you basically zero free time whatsoever.

I wouldn't want to do that ONCE a week, much less three times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be such a snobbery about NOVA being better than Baltimore. The area where that $650k home is, is beautiful and very nice. It's not the inner city, near a lot of really cool stuff. The issue with the area, however, is that it has a fantastic K-8 school, but the high school is awful. So, what you save in housing costs, you'll probably end up spending on private school tuition if you have children.

Heres a $650k house in Fairfax:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10917-Adare-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22032/51891993_zpid/

Nothing you can ever say will convince anyone that the Baltimore house with $5k more in property tax per year is worth it. Do you just like throwing money downa black hole of taxes they provides negative ROI? It's not like you even get anything for your taxes in Baltimore too.

Here's a $650k home in Cstonsville, MD right over the border:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/216-Rosewood-Ave-Catonsville-MD-21228/36201422_zpid/?

OK elementary school and $7k less per year property tax than Baltimore. You can enjoy all of the amenities in Baltimore and avoid all of the taxes by driving 10 extra minutes.

It just makes zero sense to live in Baltimore with nose bleed taxes, getting back nothing for those taxes, high crime, corrupt police, terrible infrastructure, and terrible schools. I mean I suppose there are people out there who like to pay $5-10k more in taxes for no reason at all other than to be 10 minutes closer to amenities, but to me it seems like an extremely foolish financial decision. Baltimore will go nowhere until they drastically cut their property taxes like Boston and SF did to revive their cities. Baltimore's taxes should be cut in half to start.

Thanks for the examples. That house in Fairfax is ugly on the outside and has the horrendous grey flooring on the side, and is also considerably smaller. If you're going to send a comp, at least make it a true comp.

I also believe Fairfax has a lot more to offer than Baltimore, especially for young families, but to completely blanketly describe Baltimore as all of those terrible things is not fair and ignorant.

I lived in Baltimore for years. Please enlighten me as to what makes Baltimore worth it to live in. Go back to the Catonsville house vs Baltimore house with then $7k property tax difference. Let's assume nothing changes and someone lives in those homes for 30 years. Assuming you took the $7k property tax difference and invested it instead to earn a measly 4% return, your opportunity cost for living in Baltimore balloons to almost $400k for those 30 years due to tax burden alone. This also ignores the massive opportunity costs we have to add in for a Baltimore address, like sky high car insurance and home owners insurance rates because of a high crime city.

Living in Baltimore is a huge financial albatross compared to the price differentials right over the city line. It's not like you get anything amazing for all of the extra cost either. Blowing almost half a million dollars just for the privilege of having a Baltimore zip code is dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be such a snobbery about NOVA being better than Baltimore. The area where that $650k home is, is beautiful and very nice. It's not the inner city, near a lot of really cool stuff. The issue with the area, however, is that it has a fantastic K-8 school, but the high school is awful. So, what you save in housing costs, you'll probably end up spending on private school tuition if you have children.

Heres a $650k house in Fairfax:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10917-Adare-Dr-Fairfax-VA-22032/51891993_zpid/

Nothing you can ever say will convince anyone that the Baltimore house with $5k more in property tax per year is worth it. Do you just like throwing money downa black hole of taxes they provides negative ROI? It's not like you even get anything for your taxes in Baltimore too.

Here's a $650k home in Cstonsville, MD right over the border:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/216-Rosewood-Ave-Catonsville-MD-21228/36201422_zpid/?

OK elementary school and $7k less per year property tax than Baltimore. You can enjoy all of the amenities in Baltimore and avoid all of the taxes by driving 10 extra minutes.

It just makes zero sense to live in Baltimore with nose bleed taxes, getting back nothing for those taxes, high crime, corrupt police, terrible infrastructure, and terrible schools. I mean I suppose there are people out there who like to pay $5-10k more in taxes for no reason at all other than to be 10 minutes closer to amenities, but to me it seems like an extremely foolish financial decision. Baltimore will go nowhere until they drastically cut their property taxes like Boston and SF did to revive their cities. Baltimore's taxes should be cut in half to start.

Thanks for the examples. That house in Fairfax is ugly on the outside and has the horrendous grey flooring on the side, and is also considerably smaller. If you're going to send a comp, at least make it a true comp.

I also believe Fairfax has a lot more to offer than Baltimore, especially for young families, but to completely blanketly describe Baltimore as all of those terrible things is not fair and ignorant.

I lived in Baltimore for years. Please enlighten me as to what makes Baltimore worth it to live in. Go back to the Catonsville house vs Baltimore house with then $7k property tax difference. Let's assume nothing changes and someone lives in those homes for 30 years. Assuming you took the $7k property tax difference and invested it instead to earn a measly 4% return, your opportunity cost for living in Baltimore balloons to almost $400k for those 30 years due to tax burden alone. This also ignores the massive opportunity costs we have to add in for a Baltimore address, like sky high car insurance and home owners insurance rates because of a high crime city.

Living in Baltimore is a huge financial albatross compared to the price differentials right over the city line. It's not like you get anything amazing for all of the extra cost either. Blowing almost half a million dollars just for the privilege of having a Baltimore zip code is dumb.

Generally, the point of living within city limits vs living in the suburbs is to not own a car. I have never lived in Baltimore, but I did live in Philadelphia (which Baltimore is often compared to) without a car easily.

[Anonymous]

I owned a rental in Federal Hill for almost 10 years and it was the worst investment I’ve ever made. Property taxes for landlords are insane compared to owner occupied property, crime is a huge issue and the incompetence of the government is the cherry on top. My next door neighbor had a little garden area and bushes and trees overgrown over the sidewalk. They probably sent me eight letters about the vegetation with threats to fine me and put a lien on my property for not remedying the issue. Each letter resulted in weeks of trying to get someone on the phone. They’d fix it then I’d get another letter a few weeks or months later.

I sold that house at a huge loss to get out from under it.

[Anonymous]

I like the house style and decor. It has some authentic character. So refreshing to see some crisp white walls and and decor color, instead of the usual beige everything I see in 99% of the houses around here.