Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Gabrielle Zevin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. Usually wien I don’t like a book other people like, I can at least understand the appeal, even when I do t feel it. Help me understand the deep feelings you had for these characters. SPOILER ALERT





Sam stopped talking to Sadie for years over the service hours thing. Ok, he’s a kid who just lost his mom, so I understand his overreaction. But when Sadie discovers that Sam may have known about the relationship with the professor when he asked her to get Dov’s help and instead of talking to him about it, she attributes all these terrible motives to him, that he’s stealing all the credit, and she estranged herself from him for years — what kind of great friendship was that? She treated him terribly. And what’s with the relationship with the weirdo professor who totally took advantage of her when she was a student; he was teetering right on the edge of abuse. But *him* she manages to stay friends with? Really? Then all of a sudden Sam is devastated that she’s with someone else; I thought he was asexual! Zevin never described any kind of romantic or sexual interest there. Where did that come from? And the way she rebuffed his friendship over and over after their friend died (can’t think of his name, but he, Sam’s mom and the grandfather were the only characters I liked). When she was finally willing to talk to him after the grandfather died, there he was, still chasing the crumbs of attention she deigned to give him and then bam, book’s over.

Keep in mind I'm the PP with the flowery language you (or another poster?) didn't like...

To me, your own paragraph explains the appeal of the characters. They're raw, they're complicated, they're human. I read a strong reaction out of you re: Sadie and her professor. You yourself are saying, WTF Sadie? That's what I mean when I say these characters made me feel deeply. I questioned them, didn't understand them, felt sorry for them and got frustrated with their choices. Loving this book didn't mean I loved the characters and all they did or didn't do. It just means I loved that I cared so much about them.

So many books I read lately I can barely pay attention to the storyline because I'm not engaged with the characters. This book was the opposite experience.

You were responding to me (I'm fine with flowery language, that wasn't me). I think I'm similar to you in that my assessment of books is very character-driven. However, I hate books with no likeable characters, and as I mentioned, the only characters I liked were the more tangential characters that died. I didn't like Sadie because she was so mean to Sam for no reason. I wanted to like Sam; I agree with the pp who said building that world was a wonderfully loving gesture. I had a lot more empathy for him and his issues because of his mom. I just got frustrated with him because he was so passive with Sadie and let her treat him so poorly without responding. Also, it wasn't clear to me that his love for Sadie was romantic until she ended up with the other guy. Before that, I was thinking it was a nonromantic but deep love, but then he turned out to be so jealous. I dunno; these characters just didn't touch me. But I understand a lot better why others liked it, and I see that I'm in the clear minority. On the other hand, I really loved the characters in A.J. Fikry.

[Anonymous]

I loved the book so much and think the BOTM award was well deserved.

I loved the characters, how well developed they were, and I loved how I thought the story was going in one direction with Sam and Sadie and it went in another. Books are so often predictable and this one wasn’t. I loved how I was transported back in time with the vintage references, and especially loved how Sam connected with Sadie inside the video game in the latter half of the book.

I really thought the book was a gem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I loved the book so much and think the BOTM award was well deserved.

I loved the characters, how well developed they were, and I loved how I thought the story was going in one direction with Sam and Sadie and it went in another. Books are so often predictable and this one wasn’t. I loved how I was transported back in time with the vintage references, and especially loved how Sam connected with Sadie inside the video game in the latter half of the book.

I really thought the book was a gem.

Agree with all of this. I read a lot of books, and most of them don’t stick with me. This one did. My son just finished it and loved it, as well.

The complexity of the characters was the best part for me; I wanted to shake Sam and Sadie by the shoulders sometimes, but that’s because they were so well-drawn that I cared about them. I really appreciated the depth she gave Marx, the “NPC”; many authors would have allowed him to be two-dimensional, but she was so intentional about ensuring he was fully conceived.

I read and enjoyed AJ Fikry and Young Jane Young, as well, but not nearly as much as Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. I liked AJ Fikry least of the three.

And FWIW for others who liked this book and are looking for recommendations, The Love Songs of WEB DuBois had the same effect on me. I’m not saying they are similar tonally or structurally, but the character development is very strong in both, and Love Songs stuck with me the way Tomorrow did.

[Anonymous]

Oh, I really loved this book.

I loved the messiness. The relationship between Sadie and the professor was definitely abusive. I thought it was super realistic that she has messy feelings toward him--that's what abuse IS. It's not usually clearcut, like: wow, this person is doing terrible things to me and I must escape. He had a huge amount of power over her--that really cannot be understated. It was such a win for her to leave this as her primary relationship.

I love what the PP said about it being a love story between Sadie and Sam, even though it was a friendship love story. I've been noticing a sort of surge in stories that seem to center friendship over a romantic relationship and I find it refreshing, interesting, and complex. It's so easy for people to write off friendships... there's a reason that "we're *just* friends" is a common thing for people to say! And yet, there's so much depth in many friendships... especially ones like Sadie and Sam's, that have spanned such long stretches of time.

I also thoroughly loved the setting of being a video game developer/company. For whatever reason, I had really never considered it as the creative enterprise it clearly is. I thought all the elements of collaboration (and the way it related to their friendship) was fascinating. I am not a gamer but can relate to the power of having that creative connection with someone.

Shortly after reading this, I stumbled into watching Mythic Quest on Apple TV and I would highly recommend it for someone who liked this and wants to spend more time kind of pondering the world of video games. I hope this isn't too spoiler-y but there's a specific episode in season 1 (it's technically a standalone episode, but should just be viewed in the context of the season to be truly understood) that is some of the most powerful television I've ever seen. Just incredible.

[Anonymous]

Aww I loved it. Especially the chapter where the one guy dies (I loved the bird/gamer analogy) and the one where the friend builds the game to bring her out of her depression and she slowly figures it out. So lovely and sweet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aww I loved it. Especially the chapter where the one guy dies (I loved the bird/gamer analogy) and the one where the friend builds the game to bring her out of her depression and she slowly figures it out. So lovely and sweet.

But — she was furious with him. She didn’t appreciate it at all.

[Anonymous]

I’m amazed no one has empathy for Sadie. The author did a great job fleshing out Sadie’s childhood loneliness and confusion as a kid who didn’t really fit in as well as she “should” have. She was socially awkward, an intellectual outlier (a girl in the 90s with overt, off-the-chart math-based brilliance), and of course, all the fear, confusion, guilt, and abnormality of navigating her older sister’s illness.

Yes, Sam’s childhood was also very lonely and tragically sad. And through HIS eyes, Sadie’s childhood seemed so charmed but n comparison - she had parents, a sister, money, good looks etc. But while he idolized her and thought she had everything, she was clearly suffering, too - less obviously, but no less significantly. And like Sam, Sadie’s childhood isolation and square-peg-round-hole personality stunted her emotional growth every bit as much as Sam’s did. (Evidenced by her abusive relationship with the professor in college and subsequent depression. She was always a hot mess.)

That’s part of what I loved. Sam and Sadie led parallel lives in many ways. But both were so often stuck in their own heads (and so consumed by their own long-standing, and in some ways multi-generational, sorrows) that they often couldn’t see things from the others’ point of view - even when it was glaringly obvious to us, the readers. And yet they continued to stay connected just enough to feel each other’s presence in their lives - two hurt, sad people who maybe felt a little less alone knowing the other was there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m amazed no one has empathy for Sadie. The author did a great job fleshing out Sadie’s childhood loneliness and confusion as a kid who didn’t really fit in as well as she “should” have. She was socially awkward, an intellectual outlier (a girl in the 90s with overt, off-the-chart math-based brilliance), and of course, all the fear, confusion, guilt, and abnormality of navigating her older sister’s illness.

Yes, Sam’s childhood was also very lonely and tragically sad. And through HIS eyes, Sadie’s childhood seemed so charmed but n comparison - she had parents, a sister, money, good looks etc. But while he idolized her and thought she had everything, she was clearly suffering, too - less obviously, but no less significantly. And like Sam, Sadie’s childhood isolation and square-peg-round-hole personality stunted her emotional growth every bit as much as Sam’s did. (Evidenced by her abusive relationship with the professor in college and subsequent depression. She was always a hot mess.)

That’s part of what I loved. Sam and Sadie led parallel lives in many ways. But both were so often stuck in their own heads (and so consumed by their own long-standing, and in some ways multi-generational, sorrows) that they often couldn’t see things from the others’ point of view - even when it was glaringly obvious to us, the readers. And yet they continued to stay connected just enough to feel each other’s presence in their lives - two hurt, sad people who maybe felt a little less alone knowing the other was there.

Yup, this nails it.

[Anonymous]

I liked it. I expected it to be a 5-star read for me. I struggled with Sadie more than I wanted to. Blaming Sam for the resumption of her relationship with Dov? No. Not speaking to Sam for years when they’re business partners? Impossible. Sam cutting her off over the service hours log? Believable but idk. Marx didn’t feel entirely real and the switch to the Simon and Ant POVs didn’t work for me. But I did really like it! Hard to explain.

[Anonymous]

Heh. I just finished it and loved it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. Usually wien I don’t like a book other people like, I can at least understand the appeal, even when I do t feel it. Help me understand the deep feelings you had for these characters. SPOILER ALERT





Sam stopped talking to Sadie for years over the service hours thing. Ok, he’s a kid who just lost his mom, so I understand his overreaction. But when Sadie discovers that Sam may have known about the relationship with the professor when he asked her to get Dov’s help and instead of talking to him about it, she attributes all these terrible motives to him, that he’s stealing all the credit, and she estranged herself from him for years — what kind of great friendship was that? She treated him terribly. And what’s with the relationship with the weirdo professor who totally took advantage of her when she was a student; he was teetering right on the edge of abuse. But *him* she manages to stay friends with? Really? Then all of a sudden Sam is devastated that she’s with someone else; I thought he was asexual! Zevin never described any kind of romantic or sexual interest there. Where did that come from? And the way she rebuffed his friendship over and over after their friend died (can’t think of his name, but he, Sam’s mom and the grandfather were the only characters I liked). When she was finally willing to talk to him after the grandfather died, there he was, still chasing the crumbs of attention she deigned to give him and then bam, book’s over.

Keep in mind I'm the PP with the flowery language you (or another poster?) didn't like...

To me, your own paragraph explains the appeal of the characters. They're raw, they're complicated, they're human. I read a strong reaction out of you re: Sadie and her professor. You yourself are saying, WTF Sadie? That's what I mean when I say these characters made me feel deeply. I questioned them, didn't understand them, felt sorry for them and got frustrated with their choices. Loving this book didn't mean I loved the characters and all they did or didn't do. It just means I loved that I cared so much about them.

So many books I read lately I can barely pay attention to the storyline because I'm not engaged with the characters. This book was the opposite experience.

You were responding to me (I'm fine with flowery language, that wasn't me). I think I'm similar to you in that my assessment of books is very character-driven. However, I hate books with no likeable characters, and as I mentioned, the only characters I liked were the more tangential characters that died. I didn't like Sadie because she was so mean to Sam for no reason. I wanted to like Sam; I agree with the pp who said building that world was a wonderfully loving gesture. I had a lot more empathy for him and his issues because of his mom. I just got frustrated with him because he was so passive with Sadie and let her treat him so poorly without responding. Also, it wasn't clear to me that his love for Sadie was romantic until she ended up with the other guy. Before that, I was thinking it was a nonromantic but deep love, but then he turned out to be so jealous. I dunno; these characters just didn't touch me. But I understand a lot better why others liked it, and I see that I'm in the clear minority. On the other hand, I really loved the characters in A.J. Fikry.

I totally got why Sadie was mean to Sam. Sam was f * cking annoying sometimes! Huge victim mindset but also arrogant and domineering. Very believable that he would drive people crazy even as they admitted he was brilliant. Sadie wasn’t dissimilar though - I equally understood why Sam got frustrated with HER. Her incessant need for credit and the way she withdrew was also irritating. I think the success of the story is that neither of these characters are inherently likable, but we cared about them both in different ways and empathized when they were annoyed with one another. Making the most likable and amiable character the NPC was clever. The most dynamic and captivating people in real life are rarely the genuinely good and likable ones.

[Anonymous]

Its basically a saga, right? Spanning 30 years is saga territory but the whole video gaming element makes it for the modern age

I watched the film of The Storied Life of AJVirkery recently. Not my kind of thing at all, a schmaltzy yarn, but I did enjoy it on a cold afternoon while my kids were at school and I had nothing better to do. It's kind of like watching soap operas, you get drawn in by something and as soon as it's over, the whole thing has gone. It has no substance, but it is entertainment.

So it's a low-brow book, but not to be dismissed entirely as it is clearly very popular with a lot of readers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this book is like black licorice. You're either a "five stars" reader or "I hate this" reader.

I’m neither - I liked it well enough, especially the complexity of the characters. But there was something unfulfilling about it, ultimately. It wasn’t a good enough story in the way that, say, Stephen King’s books are. The real strength of the book is the flawed humanity of the characters, and that’s not nothing. Overall, I’d give it 2.5/5 stars.

[Anonymous]

I just read an excerpt of this on LitHub. It’s horribly written, overwritten. I don’t think you can be an astute reader or understand how language is supposed to operate and like this as a ‘quality’ read.

[Anonymous]

My favorite chapters were the ones where the third friend dies like a bird in a video game and then the old west chapter where you slowly realize all of the characters are Sam trying to reach Sadie.