how to help a kids without number sense

[Anonymous]

I agree that a hands on multisensory approach with manipulatives is best. Either Marilyns or another program, like Math Mammoth, and you add in manipulatives to each lesson. And i agree that first is a good place to start. (Former second grade teacher here).

[Anonymous]

https://www.sfusdmath.org/3-act-tasks.html

https://gfletchy.com/3-act-lessons/

https://stevewyborney.com/2018/09/splat-for-google-slides-40-lessons/

https://wodb.ca/numbers.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like Beast Academy a lot, but I am not convinced that it is the best tool for someone struggling with math. The modal BA student is someone who finds the pace of math at his or her school much too slow, though occasionally a more average student will use it at a lower level to help shore up concepts.

Instead, I would support developing your daughter's "number sense" intuition through use a of a program like Kumon or Rod and Staff Math (disclaimer: Christian), whose focus is on fluid calculation. The more conceptual Singapore Math US Ed. would possibly make for another good option, possibly with the addition of the "Extra Practice" workbooks, which provide, well, extra practice on top of the main textbook/workbook combo.

If she starts breezing through the above, then maybe the problem was that she got off track during virtual school and Beast Academy really would be a good fit. But given the situation as described, I wouldn't try that first.

If even R&S or Kumon do not seem to stick, then it might be worth looking at some of the "tools" used for dyscalculia. People I know who work with that population tend to be big fans of Ronit Bird.

OP, here. I missed this before and appreciate the thoughtful answer. Needing to excel is definitely NOT the problem. However, I worried that Kumon was too rote memorization. She can memorize facts and even strategies. But, I think because it's all memorization, being flexible with strategies and understanding what it all means is lost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a 3rd grader that struggles with math. She can do enough to get by in school and not stand out (many of her classmates are struggling or worse and don't have parents at home able to help) but I'm concerned. She both missed some critical building blocks during the almost 1.5 years her school was virtual and I don't think has much innate math ability (she IS super strong in ELA).

Her teacher is great but I am having trouble articulating to her what I see at home .. this just lack of intuitive number sense.

And, I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the same in their children and been able to help either themselves or by more official tutoring. (Examples include being able to say there are 1s 10s and 100s e value but not really understanding what that means.)

She might be more of a hands on learner. Instead of a computer based learning I would suggest getting a place value kit (you can even make it, it’s easy, Google it) and then practice with her. What are some other areas that she’s struggling with? In our school, many kids 3rd and up struggle with subtraction regrouping. Word problems are also an issue for some, so you might want to come up with problems such as - Andy has 154 Pokémon card and Jake has 290 Pokémon cards. How many more cards does Jake have? Rounding numbers and estimating - to the nearest 10, 100 and so on… equal, more less than, something like this: 4+8=6+6…this is what gen ed 3rd grade is doing right now. You just need to work with her, don’t expect school to help more. They have enough kids to deal with that are way behind even the basics.

Thanks. I did buy all the Montessori beads and similar when I noticed this during the midst of the pandemic. I just am not great at knowing how to use them with her, which is why I'm looking for more of a program. But I need to just take them out and make sure they are there when we're doing math.

I know the school can't/won't do much more. They are working with her on the curriculum and I don't think she appears unable to access it from their perspective. And because she's super verbal and reads at a high level, she's (not wrongly) not a concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a 3rd grader that struggles with math. She can do enough to get by in school and not stand out (many of her classmates are struggling or worse and don't have parents at home able to help) but I'm concerned. She both missed some critical building blocks during the almost 1.5 years her school was virtual and I don't think has much innate math ability (she IS super strong in ELA).

Her teacher is great but I am having trouble articulating to her what I see at home .. this just lack of intuitive number sense.

And, I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the same in their children and been able to help either themselves or by more official tutoring. (Examples include being able to say there are 1s 10s and 100s e value but not really understanding what that means.)

She might be more of a hands on learner. Instead of a computer based learning I would suggest getting a place value kit (you can even make it, it’s easy, Google it) and then practice with her. What are some other areas that she’s struggling with? In our school, many kids 3rd and up struggle with subtraction regrouping. Word problems are also an issue for some, so you might want to come up with problems such as - Andy has 154 Pokémon card and Jake has 290 Pokémon cards. How many more cards does Jake have? Rounding numbers and estimating - to the nearest 10, 100 and so on… equal, more less than, something like this: 4+8=6+6…this is what gen ed 3rd grade is doing right now. You just need to work with her, don’t expect school to help more. They have enough kids to deal with that are way behind even the basics.

Thanks. I did buy all the Montessori beads and similar when I noticed this during the midst of the pandemic. I just am not great at knowing how to use them with her, which is why I'm looking for more of a program. But I need to just take them out and make sure they are there when we're doing math.

I know the school can't/won't do much more. They are working with her on the curriculum and I don't think she appears unable to access it from their perspective. And because she's super verbal and reads at a high level, she's (not wrongly) not a concern.

OP, you may want to look into Mathnasium or perhaps Russian School of Math. Have heard from friends that Mathnasium has helped their kids. Also RSM has different tracks and will get her into the right one. I hear you about having a hard time helping kids with math.

[Anonymous]

My daughter struggles with math and has found the Khan Academy model to be really helpful. It's very simple and takes about 15 minutes per unit - it's a short video with a little quiz at the end, and if you answer the question incorrectly, it will link back to the part of the video where that concept was explained. I wouldn't say she likes it, but she doesn't object too much and I think she has gotten a lot out of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Beast Academy a lot, but I am not convinced that it is the best tool for someone struggling with math. The modal BA student is someone who finds the pace of math at his or her school much too slow, though occasionally a more average student will use it at a lower level to help shore up concepts.

Instead, I would support developing your daughter's "number sense" intuition through use a of a program like Kumon or Rod and Staff Math (disclaimer: Christian), whose focus is on fluid calculation. The more conceptual Singapore Math US Ed. would possibly make for another good option, possibly with the addition of the "Extra Practice" workbooks, which provide, well, extra practice on top of the main textbook/workbook combo.

If she starts breezing through the above, then maybe the problem was that she got off track during virtual school and Beast Academy really would be a good fit. But given the situation as described, I wouldn't try that first.

If even R&S or Kumon do not seem to stick, then it might be worth looking at some of the "tools" used for dyscalculia. People I know who work with that population tend to be big fans of Ronit Bird.

OP, here. I missed this before and appreciate the thoughtful answer. Needing to excel is definitely NOT the problem. However, I worried that Kumon was too rote memorization. She can memorize facts and even strategies. But, I think because it's all memorization, being flexible with strategies and understanding what it all means is lost.

I think of Kumon & R&S as akin to musicians practicing scales. The major way to get an intuitive feel for something is to do a lot of it. The greater power of memorization, fluidity in calculation, etc is that it frees up mental resources -- when presented with an problem, you don't have to waste any of your IQ points on the cognitive load of figuring out, say, 9x8 - you can dedicate your full powers to the core issue.

But! Thinking more holistically, I think Singapore Math probably would be better fit for you -- I suspect it's not just number sense that is involved in your above-average kid underperforming at math, and number sense may grow with time and a reasonable amount of practice. I suggest US Edition because it is older and there is a LOT of materials and resources out there to help the parent (and they are available in used copies, so it's cheaper).

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Beast Academy a lot, but I am not convinced that it is the best tool for someone struggling with math. The modal BA student is someone who finds the pace of math at his or her school much too slow, though occasionally a more average student will use it at a lower level to help shore up concepts.

Instead, I would support developing your daughter's "number sense" intuition through use a of a program like Kumon or Rod and Staff Math (disclaimer: Christian), whose focus is on fluid calculation. The more conceptual Singapore Math US Ed. would possibly make for another good option, possibly with the addition of the "Extra Practice" workbooks, which provide, well, extra practice on top of the main textbook/workbook combo.

If she starts breezing through the above, then maybe the problem was that she got off track during virtual school and Beast Academy really would be a good fit. But given the situation as described, I wouldn't try that first.

If even R&S or Kumon do not seem to stick, then it might be worth looking at some of the "tools" used for dyscalculia. People I know who work with that population tend to be big fans of Ronit Bird.

OP, here. I missed this before and appreciate the thoughtful answer. Needing to excel is definitely NOT the problem. However, I worried that Kumon was too rote memorization. She can memorize facts and even strategies. But, I think because it's all memorization, being flexible with strategies and understanding what it all means is lost.

I think of Kumon & R&S as akin to musicians practicing scales. The major way to get an intuitive feel for something is to do a lot of it. The greater power of memorization, fluidity in calculation, etc is that it frees up mental resources -- when presented with an problem, you don't have to waste any of your IQ points on the cognitive load of figuring out, say, 9x8 - you can dedicate your full powers to the core issue.

But! Thinking more holistically, I think Singapore Math probably would be better fit for you -- I suspect it's not just number sense that is involved in your above-average kid underperforming at math, and number sense may grow with time and a reasonable amount of practice. I suggest US Edition because it is older and there is a LOT of materials and resources out there to help the parent (and they are available in used copies, so it's cheaper).

I have to disagree with the above with respect to Kumon as developing an "intuitive feel". From what I have seen, the reason that people think of Kumon as "drill and kill" is that it is an endless drill of very similar, basic, exercises, like pages and pages of them!. There are only scales, no actual problems to be solved, imagine forcing your child to only do that each day without playing a musical piece, they are surely likely to quit.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Beast Academy a lot, but I am not convinced that it is the best tool for someone struggling with math. The modal BA student is someone who finds the pace of math at his or her school much too slow, though occasionally a more average student will use it at a lower level to help shore up concepts.

Instead, I would support developing your daughter's "number sense" intuition through use a of a program like Kumon or Rod and Staff Math (disclaimer: Christian), whose focus is on fluid calculation. The more conceptual Singapore Math US Ed. would possibly make for another good option, possibly with the addition of the "Extra Practice" workbooks, which provide, well, extra practice on top of the main textbook/workbook combo.

If she starts breezing through the above, then maybe the problem was that she got off track during virtual school and Beast Academy really would be a good fit. But given the situation as described, I wouldn't try that first.

If even R&S or Kumon do not seem to stick, then it might be worth looking at some of the "tools" used for dyscalculia. People I know who work with that population tend to be big fans of Ronit Bird.

OP, here. I missed this before and appreciate the thoughtful answer. Needing to excel is definitely NOT the problem. However, I worried that Kumon was too rote memorization. She can memorize facts and even strategies. But, I think because it's all memorization, being flexible with strategies and understanding what it all means is lost.

I think of Kumon & R&S as akin to musicians practicing scales. The major way to get an intuitive feel for something is to do a lot of it. The greater power of memorization, fluidity in calculation, etc is that it frees up mental resources -- when presented with an problem, you don't have to waste any of your IQ points on the cognitive load of figuring out, say, 9x8 - you can dedicate your full powers to the core issue.

But! Thinking more holistically, I think Singapore Math probably would be better fit for you -- I suspect it's not just number sense that is involved in your above-average kid underperforming at math, and number sense may grow with time and a reasonable amount of practice. I suggest US Edition because it is older and there is a LOT of materials and resources out there to help the parent (and they are available in used copies, so it's cheaper).

I have to disagree with the above with respect to Kumon as developing an "intuitive feel". From what I have seen, the reason that people think of Kumon as "drill and kill" is that it is an endless drill of very similar, basic, exercises, like pages and pages of them!. There are only scales, no actual problems to be solved, imagine forcing your child to only do that each day without playing a musical piece, they are surely likely to quit.

On the other hand, there are some kids who actually do like the repetitiveness and the measurable progress, and more who could use the practice, and I think these are underestimated aspects. Repetitiveness helps intuition by more or less eventually letting things happen automatically in the background of one's mind. Kumon's math program is also strictly supplementary -- the "music" would be in whatever one's main curriculum is. It's not something I would recommend to most "good at math" students -- certainly for older elementary and above, I wouldn't expect much, if any, overlap in student needs between AoPS and Kumon, outside of to shore up a particular area of weakness (my mathy kid has had to work his way through more than a few pages of Kumon workbooks, though he's ever needed to do a whole workbook, and probably wouldn't be suited to their in-person centers).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a 3rd grader that struggles with math. She can do enough to get by in school and not stand out (many of her classmates are struggling or worse and don't have parents at home able to help) but I'm concerned. She both missed some critical building blocks during the almost 1.5 years her school was virtual and I don't think has much innate math ability (she IS super strong in ELA).

Her teacher is great but I am having trouble articulating to her what I see at home .. this just lack of intuitive number sense.

And, I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the same in their children and been able to help either themselves or by more official tutoring. (Examples include being able to say there are 1s 10s and 100s and showing place value but not really understanding what that means.)

Distance learning was tough for building a strong math base. You may want to try AoPS's Beast Academy online or their Academy in-person program. Their program is excellent for building number sense. You may want to start her in their first grade Beast program, so that she gets the benefit of their development sequence. She would already know the base concepts and thus move through pretty quickly, but there will undoubtedly be approaches and creative exercises that will still challenge her because their program is so deep and rich. By going back a grade or two, you ensure she has no gaps. It's common for kids to begin AoPS for an earlier grade than where they are, when they first start the AoPS sequence. It's also good for their interest level and confidence to begin at a point where they feel comfortable. If she's super strong in ELA, it may just be that she hasn't been inspired in math yet, rather than any lack of math ability. Beast uses cartoon characters which actually makes math fun!

Completely agree with PP here, Beast Academy is an excellent, but challenging program. I want to add that for this program it's important to gently help/guide your kids, as they may struggle to fully do everything independently. But in my opinion this is a good thing, you will learn new things and ways to intuitively think about math (as I did when I solved problems along with my kid in the last couple of years that we've gone through the Beast Academy series). If you do this regularly as a team (maybe 30 mins/day), you will find that your daughter will not only develop a strong number sense, she will also learn a lot of math that isn't being taught/shown in school, and hopefully will also develop a strong interest/curiosity in the subject.

+1 Beast Academy is really great.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Beast Academy a lot, but I am not convinced that it is the best tool for someone struggling with math. The modal BA student is someone who finds the pace of math at his or her school much too slow, though occasionally a more average student will use it at a lower level to help shore up concepts.

Instead, I would support developing your daughter's "number sense" intuition through use a of a program like Kumon or Rod and Staff Math (disclaimer: Christian), whose focus is on fluid calculation. The more conceptual Singapore Math US Ed. would possibly make for another good option, possibly with the addition of the "Extra Practice" workbooks, which provide, well, extra practice on top of the main textbook/workbook combo.

If she starts breezing through the above, then maybe the problem was that she got off track during virtual school and Beast Academy really would be a good fit. But given the situation as described, I wouldn't try that first.

If even R&S or Kumon do not seem to stick, then it might be worth looking at some of the "tools" used for dyscalculia. People I know who work with that population tend to be big fans of Ronit Bird.

OP, here. I missed this before and appreciate the thoughtful answer. Needing to excel is definitely NOT the problem. However, I worried that Kumon was too rote memorization. She can memorize facts and even strategies. But, I think because it's all memorization, being flexible with strategies and understanding what it all means is lost.

I think of Kumon & R&S as akin to musicians practicing scales. The major way to get an intuitive feel for something is to do a lot of it. The greater power of memorization, fluidity in calculation, etc is that it frees up mental resources -- when presented with an problem, you don't have to waste any of your IQ points on the cognitive load of figuring out, say, 9x8 - you can dedicate your full powers to the core issue.

But! Thinking more holistically, I think Singapore Math probably would be better fit for you -- I suspect it's not just number sense that is involved in your above-average kid underperforming at math, and number sense may grow with time and a reasonable amount of practice. I suggest US Edition because it is older and there is a LOT of materials and resources out there to help the parent (and they are available in used copies, so it's cheaper).

I have to disagree with the above with respect to Kumon as developing an "intuitive feel". From what I have seen, the reason that people think of Kumon as "drill and kill" is that it is an endless drill of very similar, basic, exercises, like pages and pages of them!. There are only scales, no actual problems to be solved, imagine forcing your child to only do that each day without playing a musical piece, they are surely likely to quit.

On the other hand, there are some kids who actually do like the repetitiveness and the measurable progress, and more who could use the practice, and I think these are underestimated aspects. Repetitiveness helps intuition by more or less eventually letting things happen automatically in the background of one's mind. Kumon's math program is also strictly supplementary -- the "music" would be in whatever one's main curriculum is. It's not something I would recommend to most "good at math" students -- certainly for older elementary and above, I wouldn't expect much, if any, overlap in student needs between AoPS and Kumon, outside of to shore up a particular area of weakness (my mathy kid has had to work his way through more than a few pages of Kumon workbooks, though he's ever needed to do a whole workbook, and probably wouldn't be suited to their in-person centers).

We're in agreement, some kids need extra practice either because they don't get enough of it (perhaps not enough at school, or they're doing a curriculum such as AoPS which is almost all problem solving with minimal very basic exercises, etc), or some kids really need drill at particular times in their development (maybe multiplication, fractions). However in these instances Kumon isn't special; any materials providing extra practice will achieve the goal and pretty easy to pull from various random workbooks or worksheets. I think the structure of their program is just overkill and would certainly not fit most kids. It could very much actually teach them to give up more easily when they encounter non drill like problems where they have to pause and think for a bit before finding the solution.

[Anonymous]

I’m an educator who works with children who need remediation for various reasons.

The way we support children with weak number sense is to work in more concrete ways—using math tools to model
numbers and operations. The math tools (manipulatives) include ten frames, hundred grids, base ten blocks, place value mats, number lines, Unifix blocks, and other tools. Once a child understands the concrete model, we bridge him/her/them to increasing levels of abstraction.

There aren’t many set curricula for this. The Engage NY curriculum comes close, but the pacing and some of the problem types are rather challenging for those who need intensive remediation with number sense. You might try the out-of-print book Weaving Your Way from Arithmetic to Mathematics once your child’s understanding of the base 10 number sense and basic number operations is a more established.

Beast Academy is a curriculum designed for extension, not remediation. For children who don’t have good number sense, this will not help and may even be confusing. Singapore Math, Mathnasium, Khan, and Kumon are good for average to high performing students who intuitively “get” math and benefit from repetition to develop greater fluency (speed, accuracy). They are somewhat akin to SAT test prep-style learning—not great for establishing a first foundation but perfect for practice and refining understanding.

Number sense is the basic literacy of math. When children are struggling to decode words, we throw intensive phonics intervention at them because we know they can’t build strong literacy on a shaky foundation. Treat math skills the same way and find a tutor experienced with learning differences and remediation (not a college student, an early career educator, or someone without special education experience).

[Anonymous]

Singapore math is amazing for math sense. It helped me tremendously, actually! But yeah after I homeschooled my son using that curriculum his number sense is amazing.