Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden withholding bombs because of civilian collateral damage reminds me when LBJ was picking bombing locations during Vietnam. Biden continues to bury himself but too stupid to realize it like Johnson did...

Several US presidents have withheld weapons to Israel at different points. Obama tried and Israel went behind his back.

From 2014.

"After that, US-Israeli relations quietly collapsed. The next three paragraphs from the Journal's story are astonishing — particularly the part where Netanyahu commanded that Obama was "not to ever second-guess me again" about the Gaza war..."

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6002033/israel-american-weapons-netanyhau

If you don't think this is a problem....

+1

I am with Biden on this.

We can stand iron-clad to support Israel and Israel's right to exist.
We can stand iron-clad in Israel's defense against threats from iran and potentially others
We can stand with Israel as it tries to free hostages and take out Hamas's operational ability.

In my opinion, since December, Israel has acted with impunity and went well beyond "retribution" and had no operational strategy against Hamas.

I get that some may consider this "abandoning" our alley, or liken this to withholding arms to Ukraine. I wholly disagree with those notions. We stand with israel, but not the current leadership. We are arming Israel in its defense, but not in its wanton destruction of millions of human lives.

So in your world when Israel attacks Iran again we should stand by them? No we should not. We should have let Iran bomb the sh#t out of them. The Israelis only understand violence and death.

I think you dream of the US supporting Iran is a bit misguided. Their leader lead chants of death to America so I don’t think this one is happening anytime soon.

If anything, Trump supported Iran by pulling out of the JCPOA. That was a gift to the hardliners in Iran. Before that, the moderate parties in Iran had had electoral successes and the agreement was working.

I wouldn't call the JCPOA as "American supporting Iran" but rather the global community trying to bring Iran back into the fold. At Putin's behest, trump shattered it and here we are. Had Trump left it alone, things in Iran and the regional Middle East conflicts would be or at least could have been very different, today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ceasefire agreed to by Hamas-

Israel withdraws from Gaza, no aerial flights.
Hamas has freedom to move in all of Gaza
Hamas releases three living or dead hostages on third day, and three more every seven days.
For each living female released, 50 Palestinians are released, including anyone rearrested who was released in exchange for Shalit in 2011.
These prisoners are free to go to West Bank.

So two months to release bodies of hostages, with maybe hundreds of prisoners released for ten Israelis. Hamas could then stop whenever they wanted, knowing Biden and Europe(and DCUM) would pressure Israel not to break the ceasefire and reinvade Gaza.
Hamas would also become powerful in West Bank, having freed the prisoners that the current leadership could not.

It's almost like invading without having any plan to deal with civilian administration was destined to fail and be a public relations disaster. This speeds everything up, but Israel does not want to be an occupying power. When they leave, whoever they install will be overthrown because that's what happens to unpopular puppets. This was going to always end with either the IDF pulling out and Hamas declaring victory or massive ethnic cleansing. There is no other solution open to Israel

There is a solution - long term peace - but Israel doesn't want that because they want to keep the West Bank.

What a lovely idea! I think you might be ascribing too much omnipotent power to Israel though. They are only half of the conflict. There is another half as well that is equally opposed to giving up anything.

Not as much, to be frank. The PA and most of Palestinian society have accepted the 1967 line. Israel has pointedly not and their Goverment has exclaimed that it is there overriding goal to never allow an independent Palestine to exist.

At this point there are more Israelis with expansionist dreams of taking over Jordan and the Sinai then there are Palestinians with expansionist dreams of taking over Israel.

Expansionist or not, and justified or not, Palestinians have been sending suicide bombers and rockets into Israel for decades. Longer than the majority of Palestinians have been alive. Terrorism (internationally condemned war crimes) is all they know, it's their way of life.

I see. How would you like Palestinians to respond to land grab, water theft, settler violence and restrictions in human rights?

What non-violent, effective ways of resistance do you think are available to them?

There are multiple reports of 7+ Palestinian communities in the West Bank being completely depopulated due to settler violence, theft, killing of livestock and demolition of housing and equipment. Put plainly, these people are fleeing armed group of settler thugs who wreck violence as the IDF watches on.

How would you like Palestinians to resist this? Tell me.

There are ways that I would resist and ways that I would not. Generations of Palestinians have chosen a very different way of resisting than I ever would and I do not support it.

LOL. I love it when Americans say "I would OnLy cross the border LEgALly." That is utter BS and intellectually lazy. You mean tell me if your kid was starving, or you were in danger/subject to violence, or your freedom of movement was restricted by staying that you would just apply for a green card and wait 10 years. Riiiiight. Does not pass the sniff test.

Cross the border? Where did that come from?

I said I do not support suicide bombers, child soldiers, and indiscriminate rockets into civilian areas, which is what Hamas does. I would not do those things if my kid were starving. There are other options.

Okay. Your name is Mona and you live in the West Bank farming village. You have four children aged 19 to 4. Two oldest are boys and you worry about them the most. Your younger child's school is half a mile away but your child has to take a 2-hr bus trip to get to it because the checkpoints. The nearest hospital is a mile away but there are four checkpoints between you and the hospital so one time when you really needed to go, you were made to wait for eight hours in the car, and you miscarried before you got to the hospital. The fetus died.

Yesterday a group of armed settlers from the nearest hilltop came to your farm, uprooted your trees, killed twelve sheep and damaged your solar panel. They also threw dirt into your water well. They've set up fire to your livestock pen and said tomorrow it will be your house. They were accompanied by an IDF unit that watched while they did all that. There is no police to complain to for you as the West Bank police has no authority over them. If you resist the settlers, you'll be arrested and tried in Israeli military court, which has a 97% conviction rate for Palestinians. Your oldest son got angry and wanted to throw rocks at the soldiers but you restrained him and reminded him of eight months he was in admin detention with no charge or trial when you didn't even know where he was, and when he came home, he was thirty pounds thinner. You also reminded him of his friend who was shot and killed by the IDF, and no one cared. The parents complained but were told their son was a terrorist and instructed to shut up.

Now I really wanna hear about your options to resist. Tell me. What would Mona do?

+1. This is the reality of life for many in the West Bank. To expect all people to only resist in a Gandhi-approved way is to not understand human nature.

[Anonymous]

Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

If terrorism isn't the answer and peaceful coexistence isn't the answer, what is the answer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden withholding bombs because of civilian collateral damage reminds me when LBJ was picking bombing locations during Vietnam. Biden continues to bury himself but too stupid to realize it like Johnson did...

Several US presidents have withheld weapons to Israel at different points. Obama tried and Israel went behind his back.

From 2014.

"After that, US-Israeli relations quietly collapsed. The next three paragraphs from the Journal's story are astonishing — particularly the part where Netanyahu commanded that Obama was "not to ever second-guess me again" about the Gaza war..."

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6002033/israel-american-weapons-netanyhau

If you don't think this is a problem....

+1

I am with Biden on this.

We can stand iron-clad to support Israel and Israel's right to exist.
We can stand iron-clad in Israel's defense against threats from iran and potentially others
We can stand with Israel as it tries to free hostages and take out Hamas's operational ability.

In my opinion, since December, Israel has acted with impunity and went well beyond "retribution" and had no operational strategy against Hamas.

I get that some may consider this "abandoning" our alley, or liken this to withholding arms to Ukraine. I wholly disagree with those notions. We stand with israel, but not the current leadership. We are arming Israel in its defense, but not in its wanton destruction of millions of human lives.

So in your world when Israel attacks Iran again we should stand by them? No we should not. We should have let Iran bomb the sh#t out of them. The Israelis only understand violence and death.

The last time Israel bombed Iran, it was in response to an Iranian attack. If Iran doesn't attack again, Israel won't retaliate.

If Hamas had returned the hostages, the opportunity for the current campaign to end would increase. But Hamas continues to hold the hostages.

The last time Iran attacked Israel, it was in response to Israel attacking an embassy. We can go back and forth as far as Mossad helping to prop up the Shah if you want

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

The west bank encroachments were illegal according to international law. So basically you are supporting a violation of international law.


Imagine how different our world would be right now if the hard right in Israel hadn't assassinated Rabin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

If terrorism isn't the answer and peaceful coexistence isn't the answer, what is the answer?

The second intifada was not peaceful coexistence. The Palestinians should have done everything they could to help the Labor party stay in power. Then get what they can out of a 2 state solution.

Now, it's kind of too late. There are only bad and worse outcomes. Palestinians are at the mercy of Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

If terrorism isn't the answer and peaceful coexistence isn't the answer, what is the answer?

The second intifada was not peaceful coexistence. The Palestinians should have done everything they could to help the Labor party stay in power. Then get what they can out of a 2 state solution.

Now, it's kind of too late. There are only bad and worse outcomes. Palestinians are at the mercy of Israel.

Israel is an occupying state. The Palestinians have always been at the mercy of Israel and we all know Israel does not have mercy. Israel will not allow a Palestinian state to exist. Though Israel gets butt hurt is anyone questions their existence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

The west bank encroachments were illegal according to international law. So basically you are supporting a violation of international law.


Imagine how different our world would be right now if the hard right in Israel hadn't assassinated Rabin.

I'm not supporting the West Bank encroachment, but terrorism isn't the answer. The Palestinians needed to find a way to get the Israel left back in power. Fighting just made Israel shift further to right.

Probably, the best solution was to peacefully protest to garner attention and just endure the encroachment and the crackdowns. Then hope a dove eventually comes to power in Israel and try to work with him. Easier said then done, I know, but it's a more realistic path to peace than 10/7.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

If terrorism isn't the answer and peaceful coexistence isn't the answer, what is the answer?

The second intifada was not peaceful coexistence. The Palestinians should have done everything they could to help the Labor party stay in power. Then get what they can out of a 2 state solution.

Now, it's kind of too late. There are only bad and worse outcomes. Palestinians are at the mercy of Israel.

Israel is an occupying state. The Palestinians have always been at the mercy of Israel and we all know Israel does not have mercy. Israel will not allow a Palestinian state to exist. Though Israel gets butt hurt is anyone questions their existence.

Labor was willing to work towards a solution, but Palestinians at the time let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Now we have Likud and they are not nearly as merciful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

The west bank encroachments were illegal according to international law. So basically you are supporting a violation of international law.


Imagine how different our world would be right now if the hard right in Israel hadn't assassinated Rabin.

I'm not supporting the West Bank encroachment, but terrorism isn't the answer. The Palestinians needed to find a way to get the Israel left back in power. Fighting just made Israel shift further to right.

Probably, the best solution was to peacefully protest to garner attention and just endure the encroachment and the crackdowns. Then hope a dove eventually comes to power in Israel and try to work with him. Easier said then done, I know, but it's a more realistic path to peace than 10/7.

The second infintada was 20 years ago. Even with 10/7, the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis dwarfs the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians. You're solution if for the Palestinians to just die quietly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, the Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. Lots of people denounce what’s going on in the West Bank. Unfortunately, few people are going to see terrorism as the answer.

In fact, terrorism heavily contributed to how they got here. A major reason the Labor party fell out of power is due to the second intifada. The Labor party would have stifled these West Bank encroachments. The second intifada shifted Israel to the right, and Likud doesn’t care.

If terrorism isn't the answer and peaceful coexistence isn't the answer, what is the answer?

The second intifada was not peaceful coexistence. The Palestinians should have done everything they could to help the Labor party stay in power. Then get what they can out of a 2 state solution.

Now, it's kind of too late. There are only bad and worse outcomes. Palestinians are at the mercy of Israel.

Israel is an occupying state. The Palestinians have always been at the mercy of Israel and we all know Israel does not have mercy. Israel will not allow a Palestinian state to exist. Though Israel gets butt hurt is anyone questions their existence.

If only the Palestinians were willing to give up all of their demands and accept a statelet on the worst land that Israel could find there would be peace.
Labor was willing to work towards a solution, but Palestinians at the time let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Now we have Likud and they are not nearly as merciful.

[Anonymous]

Joe Biden withheld Congressionally appropriated aid to Israel unless they granted him a political favor. It's the definition of quid pro quo.

This is no joke—Biden continues to put his own personal, political interests ahead of the national interest. He must be impeached.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Joe Biden withheld Congressionally appropriated aid to Israel unless they granted him a political favor. It's the definition of quid pro quo.

This is no joke—Biden continues to put his own personal, political interests ahead of the national interest. He must be impeached.

The political favor of... not invading Rafah.

Was your post supposed to be sarcasm? Or are you actually serious?

[Anonymous]

Now, based on the most recent posts here, the pro-Israel argument is that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (none of whom have a vote or a say in Israeli elections) should have done whatever they could have done (which was nothing since, once again, they lack any control over Israeli elections) to bide their time until a less evil (albeit still evil) Israeli leadership emerged to offer them maybe 14 - 17% of the land that was ruthlessly, violently stolen from them. A state without true sovereignty, as Israel would still control their borders, deny them the right of a military to protect themselves, etc.

Yeah, it’s totally difficult to understand why terrorism is the tactic of choice with so many other realistic options out there for the Palestinians, and with the Israeli side operating in good faith every step of the way.

/s