FCPS decline

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have gen Eds two kids at a very good FCPS ES that we're happy with. We were too stupid to realize that AAP was a big deal at the time, so we didn't bother applying. We'll apply when they're in 6th, and if they don't get it, they'll go to catholic school for middle.

So basically, instead of a normal, sane multi-tier system where we just tracks kids into track 1 / track 2 / track 3 ... / track N and where every parent can feel confident that their children are being suitably challenged by the material, and where kids can move up or down in the tracks as the years go by, based on their mastery of the academic material ...

... we've created a two-tiered system, with the "AAP" as the "good" place to be, and a dysfunctional "gen ed" pool of mediocrity and teaching to the lowest common denominator for everyone else.

How is this better?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

What does this have to do with anything?

When I was in school they were allow to separate out ESOL and those with learning disabilities but now they aren't. So everyone is stuck in the same class - and yes that means they are teaching to the lowest denominator. There should be some differentiation in the class but there is such a wide gap between some students that this isnt practical in the classroom. My kid has had someone in the classroom who showed up without speaking a single word of english. There is no way teachers can give everyone what they need in this type of environment.

Why aren't they allowed to do something as basic as group kids by academic ability? Who says they aren't allowed? As far as I know, this is a decision by FCPS -- nothing more.

differentiation isnt the issue. the issue is that kids who can't speak english or who otherwise can't keep up are kept in the same room. Once you start pulling them out and isolating them is where the issue comes in.

How would that be an issue? Pullouts are good and the high FARMS schools have more dedicated resources who are really good at what they do in terms of working with kids who are behind, have LD, ESOL, etc. It would be less beneficial for these students to be kept in a classroom where they don't understand the teacher, or cannot keep up at the pace. They should be put in smaller groups or smaller classrooms and have more resources devoted to make sure they don't fall further behind. Isn't that what all of us as humans want, and the SB as well? Everyone is in agreement here, so why don't they do it? There no "isolation" at many of the schools where many of the kids are in the same position, (i.e behind and need extra dedicated resources). But those resources should not be also teaching the rest of the kids, because it will not work.

+1 Is the current scenario really what the parents of ESOL parents want instead of a program dedicated to their children's different needs? They want their kids to succeed, too. Specials like art and music could be combined if the scheduling would work.

Exactly! Many things like art, specials, and perhaps social studies should be combined but math and LA should be fitted so that each child in the school is put into the right group that best allows each child to succeed! What is being done right now is horrible, it benefits neither the top nor the bottom when the teacher can't teach because they have to deal with a huge spectrum of kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

[Anonymous]

Immersion is probably the best way to learn a language. But as they're missing a lot daily, not sure how they get up to speed after taking time to learn the language and then the actual material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

Is language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

Is language?

No but national origin is and discrimination based on language has been equated to discrimination based on national origin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Immersion is probably the best way to learn a language. But as they're missing a lot daily, not sure how they get up to speed after taking time to learn the language and then the actual material.

Immersion is the best way to learn, but it would be done most efficiently in a separate class.

I know ACPS has two schools that are dual language immersion so ESOL and other students are on the same footing when it comes to knowing one language and not the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

Is language?

No but national origin is and discrimination based on language has been equated to discrimination based on national origin

That seems unreasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Immersion is probably the best way to learn a language. But as they're missing a lot daily, not sure how they get up to speed after taking time to learn the language and then the actual material.

Immersion is the best way to learn, but it would be done most efficiently in a separate class.

I know ACPS has two schools that are dual language immersion so ESOL and other students are on the same footing when it comes to knowing one language and not the other.

This is what needs to happen. If classes are going to be held back, FCPS needs to at least turn these classrooms into dual language so that english learners are getting the opportunity to learn another language. May not be at grade level in math but at least they'd have another useful skill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

What the heck does that mean? Ability in science is a "protected class"? Ability to study great works of literature is a "protected class"? Ability to read a history book is a "protected class"? Huh?

These are legal requirements -- there is no legal prohibition against grouping students into tracks based on their abilities in science, history, English literature, or any other subject. These are just ill-conceived FCPS policies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have gen Eds two kids at a very good FCPS ES that we're happy with. We were too stupid to realize that AAP was a big deal at the time, so we didn't bother applying. We'll apply when they're in 6th, and if they don't get it, they'll go to catholic school for middle.

So basically, instead of a normal, sane multi-tier system where we just tracks kids into track 1 / track 2 / track 3 ... / track N and where every parent can feel confident that their children are being suitably challenged by the material, and where kids can move up or down in the tracks as the years go by, based on their mastery of the academic material ...

... we've created a two-tiered system, with the "AAP" as the "good" place to be, and a dysfunctional "gen ed" pool of mediocrity and teaching to the lowest common denominator for everyone else.

How is this better?

AAP of today is semi equivalent to the standard education that we non GT students of FCPS in the 80s would have received. This is precisely why parents scramble to get that almighty AAP placement; otherwise your student will be tracked and lumped in with English learners, disruptive (diagnosed and undiagnosed) special needs students.

And yes, woe to the solidly-average FCPS student without an IEP, with basic reading, writing and math skills and without a label. These are the forgotten students, but as I was told, average is perfectly acceptable in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

And, here's a dirty little secret. The ESL students stay in ESL for years. Students arrive as freshmen unable to read, speak or understand any English and...will refuse to answer in English two years later. They fully expect and demand a translator and get one. Often they'll miss entire class periods waiting for an interpreter.

Calls home have to be interpreted. Translations services must be available for school meetings.

Are there statistics on ESL grad rates?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am 50 years old and went to FCPS as a child. I was in the GT program and went to top college and masters degree. My kids are in the school system now. I received a good education and so are my kids.

The schools have not declined. Parents just want more than any large public school system is capable of providing. If you want all the special stuff and attention you will need to pay for private. This is not rocket science.

I don't think textbooks/workbooks, homework, spelling, assigned reading, and writing practice are special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe ESOL kids do get pullouts. But they are in the classroom most of the time. How would FCPS consistently stratify learners in a way that doesn't segregate them based on english ability?

Why do we segregate based on math ability? Isn't AAP segregating those with different academic strengths and needs? Why does it make a difference when it's language? Just leaving them in the classroom with non-ESOL isn't serving either group to the best of our ability.

Math ability isnt a protected class.

What the heck does that mean? Ability in science is a "protected class"? Ability to study great works of literature is a "protected class"? Ability to read a history book is a "protected class"? Huh?

These are legal requirements -- there is no legal prohibition against grouping students into tracks based on their abilities in science, history, English literature, or any other subject. These are just ill-conceived FCPS policies.

It means if you pull all the kids who can't speak english, most would have a national origin that was not the United States and would also probably be a minority race. Both are protected classes.

That isn't the same as separating based on math ability

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And, here's a dirty little secret. The ESL students stay in ESL for years. Students arrive as freshmen unable to read, speak or understand any English and...will refuse to answer in English two years later. They fully expect and demand a translator and get one. Often they'll miss entire class periods waiting for an interpreter.

Calls home have to be interpreted. Translations services must be available for school meetings.

Are there statistics on ESL grad rates?

This is true which is why not all level 1 ESL students were phased in. There’s kids who are newcomers and truly level 1. There’s also kids who have been here since 4th grade and don’t take ACCESS tests seriously so they’re at “level 1” despite being fully fluent. They were not invited back with the other level 1 students ESL students.