Pros and Cons of Top 10 SLAC vs State Flagship Honors Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i have a phd from a top (ivy league) phd program and i nobody i know wanted to be a professor at a slac. this is considered an acceptable option but is nobody's first choice. the best researchers/scientists do not teach at SLACs.

Then why do these schools get so high rankings for the quality of undergraduate education compared to the big state universities? Is it because the teachers want to teach instead of doing research?

i have no idea why they are getting those high rankings. most students are too dumb to recognize good teaching, to be honest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

[Anonymous]

New poster here, with a kid who is a HS senior and attending a SLAC next year.

If you're really talking top 10 SLAC v. state flagship honors, and not in a technical or engineering field, then I really think the decision is more about what kind of experience your kid wants.

A top 10 SLAC all but guarantees that classes will be small and discussion based, that professors will know your kid personally (even if your kid is not the "star" in the class), and that your kid will have a sense of community with the entire school. The state flagship honors program may provide that, or it may not. And if your kid is not a "small fish, big pond" kind of kid, he or she may feel lost on a campus of 20,000+, even with the efforts that an honors program makes to create a smaller environment.

For my kid, it was a no-brainer. He was looking at SLACs, many of which had a smaller student population than his "W" high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

One of the very last piece of advice I gave my D before I sent her off to her school was that the greatest advantage of a slac is a close knit community of students and professors. If she gets sick and misses a class, everyone's going to know. The greatest disadvantage of a slac is a close knit community of students and professors. If there is a bad news, it'll spread like a wildfire and everyone's going to know. We chose a slac because advantages far outweigh disadvantages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

I'm the OP of the initial post above and you raise another issue my DC had at his SLAC. There are indeed a number of visiting professors, which can be great in terms of energy and thinking and broader course offerings, but my DC also had visiting profs who were either very inexperienced, or just not good. One was asked to leave after one semester (but of course AFTER my DC had taken a course from that prof). My DCs experience may have been somewhat skewed because he was in a relatively small major. Of course he changed majors more than once, which is not at all atypical for kids going to SLACs and is one of the benefits of the SLAC model. - I changed majors at my SLAC too - so any research on strength of department becomes moot.

To the PP posting about Michigan being more strongly positioned than some other state universities, that is true, but if we are comparing top 10 SLACs to state universities it seems like a fair comparison.

I do wonder how much overlap there really is in the applicant base. There's probably a good answer to that but I don't know it. I know my SLAC kid didn't apply to any school larger than 3000. My Michigan kid didn't apply to any SLACs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

I'm the OP of the initial post above and you raise another issue my DC had at his SLAC. There are indeed a number of visiting professors, which can be great in terms of energy and thinking and broader course offerings, but my DC also had visiting profs who were either very inexperienced, or just not good. One was asked to leave after one semester (but of course AFTER my DC had taken a course from that prof). My DCs experience may have been somewhat skewed because he was in a relatively small major. Of course he changed majors more than once, which is not at all atypical for kids going to SLACs and is one of the benefits of the SLAC model. - I changed majors at my SLAC too - so any research on strength of department becomes moot.

To the PP posting about Michigan being more strongly positioned than some other state universities, that is true, but if we are comparing top 10 SLACs to state universities it seems like a fair comparison.

I do wonder how much overlap there really is in the applicant base. There's probably a good answer to that but I don't know it. I know my SLAC kid didn't apply to any school larger than 3000. My Michigan kid didn't apply to any SLACs.

Someone posted honors probably attract top 10% in HS. Most of my D's HS classmates who applied to top SLACs are rejected. Top-10 SLACS overlap with Ivys so they probably take in top 1-2%.

Some honors colleges are pretty lame, e.g., early registration, separate dorms, (limited) honors courses, etc. I went to both a private LAC and an honors public uni. Honors uni didn't do anything for me.

[Anonymous]

Largely depends on the child but if you take personal preference out of the equation then it's a no-brainer......SLAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

I'm the OP of the initial post above and you raise another issue my DC had at his SLAC. There are indeed a number of visiting professors, which can be great in terms of energy and thinking and broader course offerings, but my DC also had visiting profs who were either very inexperienced, or just not good. One was asked to leave after one semester (but of course AFTER my DC had taken a course from that prof). My DCs experience may have been somewhat skewed because he was in a relatively small major. Of course he changed majors more than once, which is not at all atypical for kids going to SLACs and is one of the benefits of the SLAC model. - I changed majors at my SLAC too - so any research on strength of department becomes moot.

To the PP posting about Michigan being more strongly positioned than some other state universities, that is true, but if we are comparing top 10 SLACs to state universities it seems like a fair comparison.

I do wonder how much overlap there really is in the applicant base. There's probably a good answer to that but I don't know it. I know my SLAC kid didn't apply to any school larger than 3000. My Michigan kid didn't apply to any SLACs.

Someone posted honors probably attract top 10% in HS. Most of my D's HS classmates who applied to top SLACs are rejected. Top-10 SLACS overlap with Ivys so they probably take in top 1-2%.

Some honors colleges are pretty lame, e.g., early registration, separate dorms, (limited) honors courses, etc. I went to both a private LAC and an honors public uni. Honors uni didn't do anything for me.

Honors colleges are not all created equal. UPitt's for example is open to anyone who wants to take an Honors class. However, for the really good ones, its a happy marriage between getting some "love" from a big setting, some personal attention with the advantages of a large research university.

Here is a ranking of Top Honors Programs (the * colleges/universities are the Top 20 honors programs according to these metrics) https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-honors-programs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Largely depends on the child but if you take personal preference out of the equation then it's a no-brainer......SLAC.

+1

It's like Ivy v. (Honors) State U. Only way I'd choose a state uni over an Ivy or a SLAC is for financial reasons. If the finances isn't there, it's not there. If finances weren't an issue, 100% Ivy or SLAC, every time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Largely depends on the child but if you take personal preference out of the equation then it's a no-brainer......SLAC.

+1

It's like Ivy v. (Honors) State U. Only way I'd choose a state uni over an Ivy or a SLAC is for financial reasons. If the finances isn't there, it's not there. If finances weren't an issue, 100% Ivy or SLAC, every time.

People on this thread have repeatedly pointed out that depth and breadth of course offerings, size and quality of faculty, as well as diversity of the student body can be compelling EDUCATIONAL (not financial) reasons for preferring a public flagship to a SLAC. So, no, it’s not a situation where, if costs are equal, SLACs are categorically a better choice than public flagships. Depends on the particular schools being compared as well as the student’s personality, interests, and ability.

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Anonymous wrote:My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Can you tell us which state college honors college?

Michigan.

I'm very pro SLAC, but your point about not many other options if you have a weak professor is in my view one of the most genuine drawbacks of a SLAC. There are likely disproportionately fewer weak faculty (at teaching) in a SLAC than uni, but one weak faculty can have a disproportionate effect if it's in your subfield of interest in your major or if they are the sole faculty teaching a required course.

Michigan is one of the exceptional flagship honors colleges--ones that others model themselves after but often don't come near to matching so I'm not sure it's the best general comparison but it's a great proof of concept. Their honors college really does feel like a liberal arts college in the midst of a major R1 university. They also have built up its reputation so that companies know what listing its "Honors College" means.

The more active career center is not surprising to me at all--Michigan is THE major university in a region--and more companies come to their events. SLACs support careers differently than major unis.

In reality, this shouldn't be a problem bc a student will have researched the school catalog to see what the department offers. Most students also visit SLACs on accepted days for a campus tour. Any questions directed to a specific department are generally met with enthusiastic replies.

In reality, kids frequently major in a different field than they planned on and different students have different experiences with the same prof. So, no, check the catalog and ask while you visit aren’t reliable ways around this problem.

I think you are seeing a problem that normally does not exist. But if there is such a case and you could forsee those, for example, you're looking for accounting or nursing or engineering, you need to go to a school that offers either vocational or pre-professional majors. It's highly unlikely after a year or two the student wakes up one day and decides to major in something that his or her school only has one professor.

I wouldn't say this is a prevalent problem, but it's not beyond the pale based on my limited experience teaching at a top 20 SLAC as a visiting prof for 2 years fresh out my PhD. (This is a common practice--and one that I think really adds to the energy of a SLAC: there are these long-time revered faculty who really bring a feel for the institution, depth of intellectual experience and a well-honed pedagogy combined with an ever turning set of visiting faculty who are new PhDs who help keep syllabi/practices current --it's really like always having a handful of post-docs in the department in some ways). That said, being young-ish and not as revered nor as powerful as the full-time faculty, I did tend to hear a lot of gossip (from students and other faculty colleagues). There were 2 departments where in one case, a single faculty member and in another a pair, held sway in ways that seemed to create problems for students who fell out of favor for whatever reason. That said, it seemed like the school developed work arounds for this and it was good preparation for the students who are more likely than not to have to deal with a boss who treats their department like a fiefdom etc. But in a bigger state school, students just learn which profs are like this and take a different section of the course.

I'm the OP of the initial post above and you raise another issue my DC had at his SLAC. There are indeed a number of visiting professors, which can be great in terms of energy and thinking and broader course offerings, but my DC also had visiting profs who were either very inexperienced, or just not good. One was asked to leave after one semester (but of course AFTER my DC had taken a course from that prof). My DCs experience may have been somewhat skewed because he was in a relatively small major. Of course he changed majors more than once, which is not at all atypical for kids going to SLACs and is one of the benefits of the SLAC model. - I changed majors at my SLAC too - so any research on strength of department becomes moot.

To the PP posting about Michigan being more strongly positioned than some other state universities, that is true, but if we are comparing top 10 SLACs to state universities it seems like a fair comparison.

I do wonder how much overlap there really is in the applicant base. There's probably a good answer to that but I don't know it. I know my SLAC kid didn't apply to any school larger than 3000. My Michigan kid didn't apply to any SLACs.

Someone posted honors probably attract top 10% in HS. Most of my D's HS classmates who applied to top SLACs are rejected. Top-10 SLACS overlap with Ivys so they probably take in top 1-2%.

Some honors colleges are pretty lame, e.g., early registration, separate dorms, (limited) honors courses, etc. I went to both a private LAC and an honors public uni. Honors uni didn't do anything for me.

That's not really my point, it's about whether kids are likely to be interested in both a SLAC and a flagship. My DC was recruited by several top SLACs for a sport (and was pre-screened by admissions so would have been admitted ED), but decided not to pursue it because he decided he didn't want to go to a SLAC. It's not everyone's first choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Largely depends on the child but if you take personal preference out of the equation then it's a no-brainer......SLAC.

What about cost? I can understand the ROI argument. My DC is going to a SLAC. It's a good school but I'm not sure it is worth the price tag.