Sidwell throttling down college admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sidwell faces the following issue in college admissions, among others.

The top universities and colleges are no longer as willing, or able, to exempt Sidwell students from rigorous testing (AP exams or SAT subject tests) requirements simply because they are a Sidwell product. It is an elitist standard to allow Sidwell students who largely forgo AP or SAT Subject testing to compete on equal footing with students from other private and public schools alike who submit to a lot of such testing, simply because they are Sidwell students.

Consider the current lawsuits alleging discrimination in college admissions for example. Why should an Asian student from TJ in Fairfax Couty or Gunn in Palo Alto have to prove themselves by taking 9-11 AP exams/SAT subject tests to gain admission into H/MIT/P/S/Y, while a Caucasian student from Sidwell (and Sidwell is largely white and affluent), takes only 2-4 of such standardized exams at most, and demonstrates the ECs those others also have? The exempted-from, old-boy vouching model of Sidwell is not looked up favorably in today's more meritocratic world.

I really do understand why you believe the above, but the regular classes at Sidwell are much more difficult than APs. We sent our DC there to get away from rote memorization and are fully satisfied with performance at a highly rigorous college. The AP courses they do have are ridiculously filled with busy work caused by the AP curriculum. Don't confuse the college game with obtaining an education. I certainly don't have the answer for discrimination in the admissions process and am a big advocate for doing away with it. However bowing to the tyranny of APs is not it.

Harvard has comprehensive exams every term. heck, I had one 2 weeks after the graduation ceremony where if I did not pass the Econ Comp I would not have graduated/earned my major. Same for my language/linguistics major - which had weekly quizzes.
Nothing wrong with showing what you learned on a test.
I get that doing 3-4 hours a night on "interesting" homework and then showing up for a 8 person class the next day is a different pressure than doing 3-4 hours of AP class homework and showing up in a 25 person class the next day to discuss. But kids do well with a mix of reading, writing, problem sets, language/memorization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of sfs kids are not hitting Ivy League schools.

The vast majority of kids everywhere are not going to ivy league schools.

Yes, but Sidwell touts itself as the most prestigious school in the area so it needs to do better than "everywhere else". What the past few years of college admissions results show is that Sidwell is not living up to its "elite" name and paying more than half a million $$ for 13 years of education is just not worth it, if the point is to guarantee a spot for the upper school.

Well, they are leaving a lot of high stat kids on the reject and wait lists, so that must not actually be their goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

IMO most of them sit for the exams solely because it's part of the college admission process. Many of the elite colleges don't accept AP coursework for curriculum requirements although it can assist in skipping over the introductory courses IF that makes sense. No college professor is going to feel that any high school can teach at a college level. So for example, if a kid is smart they will repeat calculus if it's core to their intended major even if they aced the Calc BC exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of sfs kids are not hitting Ivy League schools.

The vast majority of kids everywhere are not going to ivy league schools.

Yes, but Sidwell touts itself as the most prestigious school in the area so it needs to do better than "everywhere else". What the past few years of college admissions results show is that Sidwell is not living up to its "elite" name and paying more than half a million $$ for 13 years of education is just not worth it, if the point is to guarantee a spot for the upper school.

Well, they are leaving a lot of high stat kids on the reject and wait lists, so that must not actually be their goal.

Wasn’t it just 2-3 years ago they had 11 in one class going to Yale? I’m no insider, but it seems like they’re doing fine in the college admissions game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of sfs kids are not hitting Ivy League schools.

The vast majority of kids everywhere are not going to ivy league schools.

Yes, but Sidwell touts itself as the most prestigious school in the area so it needs to do better than "everywhere else". What the past few years of college admissions results show is that Sidwell is not living up to its "elite" name and paying more than half a million $$ for 13 years of education is just not worth it, if the point is to guarantee a spot for the upper school.

If 25 percent of Sidwell's graduating class is attending Ivy-caliber schools, and only 10 to 15 percent (or less) of graduating classes virtually everywhere else, Sidwell would clearly be doing better and IMO living up to its elite name even though neither school is sending the vast majority of their students to these top colleges.

Even if 25 percent is hardly a guaranteed spot, I'm sure that many parents will (whether wisely or not) pay for this incrementally better outplacement and view it as a tangible benefit of their kids attending Sidwell.

P.S. This isn't necessarily a Sidwell-specific post, insert any other top private with similar matriculation stats and my point remains the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

PP here. Some do and some don't. I only took 1 AP exam. I think kids who took advanced math and science classes were more likely to take the requisite AP courses.

In any case, while it helps with getting a head start on credits, it doesn't help with college admissions from Andover. What matters are your grades in the 500 and 600 level courses, which are equivalent to college sophomore or even major-specific courses (so well beyond AP).

And to the PP who said no college professor thinks high schoolers can perform a college level: Let me put it to you this way. When I started in college, my English professor told me, "I don't have anything I can really teach you. You've already mastered everything I teach in this course." She attributed that to where I went to high school. My philosophy professor sophomore year said that, in her 25 years of experience teaching at the collegiate level, kids from Andover and Exeter come in knowing most of the freshman and sophomore curriculum.

I'm not trying to brag; I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons these schools do so well in college admissions is that they essentially act as junior colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

PP here. Some do and some don't. I only took 1 AP exam. I think kids who took advanced math and science classes were more likely to take the requisite AP courses.

In any case, while it helps with getting a head start on credits, it doesn't help with college admissions from Andover. What matters are your grades in the 500 and 600 level courses, which are equivalent to college sophomore or even major-specific courses (so well beyond AP).

And to the PP who said no college professor thinks high schoolers can perform a college level: Let me put it to you this way. When I started in college, my English professor told me, "I don't have anything I can really teach you. You've already mastered everything I teach in this course." She attributed that to where I went to high school. My philosophy professor sophomore year said that, in her 25 years of experience teaching at the collegiate level, kids from Andover and Exeter come in knowing most of the freshman and sophomore curriculum.

I'm not trying to brag; I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons these schools do so well in college admissions is that they essentially act as junior colleges.

Sorry -- that should say "requisite AP exams."

[Anonymous]

May be. I didn't say that students couldn't perform at the college level, I said that they don't trust high schools to teach to that level. Perhaps the professors at your school are different. But your experience is also pertinent only to the relative academic rigor of the college attended. I also think that the peripheral factors like family wealth at your boarding school also have a lot to do with the college admissions results. To attribute everything to student scholastic merit would be naïve. And I do think the quality of your education is superb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:May be. I didn't say that students couldn't perform at the college level, I said that they don't trust high schools to teach to that level. Perhaps the professors at your school are different. But your experience is also pertinent only to the relative academic rigor of the college attended. I also think that the peripheral factors like family wealth at your boarding school also have a lot to do with the college admissions results. To attribute everything to student scholastic merit would be naïve. And I do think the quality of your education is superb.

Ok, that's fair to an extent. It's important to remember, though, that 48% percent of Andover and Exeter kids are on financial aid and the schools have totally need-blind admissions. While there's certainly still significant wealth there, the schools are no longer solely the bastion of the elite that they used to be.

I went to a top 15 university that is generally considered pretty rigorous (and I have no family connections at private schools, much less at boarding schools or the college I attended). Perhaps it would've been different somewhere else, but Andover teachers basically told us to expect college to be easy, at least for the first 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of sfs kids are not hitting Ivy League schools.

The vast majority of kids everywhere are not going to ivy league schools.

Yes, but Sidwell touts itself as the most prestigious school in the area so it needs to do better than "everywhere else". What the past few years of college admissions results show is that Sidwell is not living up to its "elite" name and paying more than half a million $$ for 13 years of education is just not worth it, if the point is to guarantee a spot for the upper school.

Well, they are leaving a lot of high stat kids on the reject and wait lists, so that must not actually be their goal.

SFS, Cathedral schools have always had a high transfer rate one year after graduation. Unfortunately, this is common in urban top privates. If you really hate where you are going freshman year, you gin up your Transfer and go Ivy then.

It's a dirt secret of the "statistically diverse" college game where they cannot take too many tippy top students to the same programs from the same geographies or high schools.

System is flawed. The sculpting of classes creates a real wild card. Hopefully your kid finds a good program that is challenging and advances his/her education and career goals (i.e. network, career office, recruiting).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:May be. I didn't say that students couldn't perform at the college level, I said that they don't trust high schools to teach to that level. Perhaps the professors at your school are different. But your experience is also pertinent only to the relative academic rigor of the college attended. I also think that the peripheral factors like family wealth at your boarding school also have a lot to do with the college admissions results. To attribute everything to student scholastic merit would be naïve. And I do think the quality of your education is superb.

Ok, that's fair to an extent. It's important to remember, though, that 48% percent of Andover and Exeter kids are on financial aid and the schools have totally need-blind admissions. While there's certainly still significant wealth there, the schools are no longer solely the bastion of the elite that they used to be.

I went to a top 15 university that is generally considered pretty rigorous (and I have no family connections at private schools, much less at boarding schools or the college I attended). Perhaps it would've been different somewhere else, but Andover teachers basically told us to expect college to be easy, at least for the first 2 years.

same for me engineering major at top college from private HS in Midwest. even my college spanish classes were redundant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The vast majority of sfs kids are not hitting Ivy League schools.

The vast majority of kids everywhere are not going to ivy league schools.

Yes, but Sidwell touts itself as the most prestigious school in the area so it needs to do better than "everywhere else". What the past few years of college admissions results show is that Sidwell is not living up to its "elite" name and paying more than half a million $$ for 13 years of education is just not worth it, if the point is to guarantee a spot for the upper school.

Wait . . . the entire point of spending $$$ for private school is to increase chances of acceptance at an Ivy League college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

PP here. Some do and some don't. I only took 1 AP exam. I think kids who took advanced math and science classes were more likely to take the requisite AP courses.

In any case, while it helps with getting a head start on credits, it doesn't help with college admissions from Andover. What matters are your grades in the 500 and 600 level courses, which are equivalent to college sophomore or even major-specific courses (so well beyond AP).

And to the PP who said no college professor thinks high schoolers can perform a college level: Let me put it to you this way. When I started in college, my English professor told me, "I don't have anything I can really teach you. You've already mastered everything I teach in this course." She attributed that to where I went to high school. My philosophy professor sophomore year said that, in her 25 years of experience teaching at the collegiate level, kids from Andover and Exeter come in knowing most of the freshman and sophomore curriculum.

I'm not trying to brag; I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons these schools do so well in college admissions is that they essentially act as junior colleges.

They why wouldn't you test out of this? You could have been taking 200, 300, or 400 level classes in college, doing internships, going on 1-2 study abroads, etc. Or do kids like to read Dante for the third time and get easy As for two years?

Grad schools look at your previous transcript and let you move beyond the pre-reqs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW - The private boarding schools are in deliberation about withdrawing from APs.

Andover grad here. We've long not followed the AP curriculum. Courses might prepare kids for the AP exam, but it's never the express purpose. I think Exeter doesn't participate in the AP program either. This was the case when I was at Andover from 2001-2005, and I think it's still the case.

Regardless of class title or whatnot, do most kids sit for the AP tests if they know if will help with their Freshman college coursework?

PP here. Some do and some don't. I only took 1 AP exam. I think kids who took advanced math and science classes were more likely to take the requisite AP courses.

In any case, while it helps with getting a head start on credits, it doesn't help with college admissions from Andover. What matters are your grades in the 500 and 600 level courses, which are equivalent to college sophomore or even major-specific courses (so well beyond AP).

And to the PP who said no college professor thinks high schoolers can perform a college level: Let me put it to you this way. When I started in college, my English professor told me, "I don't have anything I can really teach you. You've already mastered everything I teach in this course." She attributed that to where I went to high school. My philosophy professor sophomore year said that, in her 25 years of experience teaching at the collegiate level, kids from Andover and Exeter come in knowing most of the freshman and sophomore curriculum.

I'm not trying to brag; I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons these schools do so well in college admissions is that they essentially act as junior colleges.

They why wouldn't you test out of this? You could have been taking 200, 300, or 400 level classes in college, doing internships, going on 1-2 study abroads, etc. Or do kids like to read Dante for the third time and get easy As for two years?

Grad schools look at your previous transcript and let you move beyond the pre-reqs.

There was no way to test out of it. I did study abroad for a semester in junior year. I wasn't able to test out of a lot of courses in college because I took a fairly specialized curriculum. I also couldn't have moved beyond pre-reqs for grad school, given that it was PhD coursework.