Tim Carney in the Post: The Ideal Number of Kids is Four (at a minimum)

[Anonymous]

I have four close in age. The oldest was 5 when the youngest was born. None of them changed their sibling’s diapers, but I would definitely say that they help with parenting in that they monitor each other’s behavior and speak up if someone says something rude or uncaring. It’s one thing to have your mom tell you that girls won’t like it if you don’t brush your teeth before school. It’s another thing to have your sister say it. They also help each other with homework and with generally keeping the routine of the household.
We do have one with ASD, and I probably would do more for him if he was my only child. But I also think he would have no real friends and no teenage chats into the night if it weren’t for his brothers and sister. I also don’t think anyone would call him out for being a jerk. Because sometimes he is.
I don’t know. I like having 4, and I think it’s easier in some ways. It is definitely more cooking and laundry though. There are no two ways around that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

I am 100 percent certain she's happy, because I somehow miraculously still parent despite having 5 kids. She's an A+ student with a blossoming social life and extracurriculars and even went on a solo trip with just DH and myself for her birthday. Often in the evenings with sit alone with just her and chat about life. Because again, it's a myth you can't find time to parent despite having many kids. Right now she's laughing in the front yard playing with 2 of her 4 siblings.

But I am not surprised, again, that the people with 1 or 2 kids think they know better than those of us with big families.

Please stop. I am the oldest of 6 and I have 5 children myself. What you are describing is a parentified child; I know this intimately because my parents could have written the exact same thing about me almost verbatim.

I don’t know if you come from a large family yourself, but if you don’t I do empathize that it’s easier to parentify your oldest inadvertently and unknowingly. Your oldest will probably not realize they’ve been parentified until they become parents themselves and realize what they were asked to do as children versus what they ask their oldest to do, and while they still love you there will be feelings of anger and frustration that will need to be addressed by you and your spouse.

What you’ve described is not the ideal way to raise a larger family, even though I’m sure you’re doing your best and your kids love you and your family (because I did and still do love my parents and my siblings myself). Please stop describing parentification as a bragging point though. It’s making all parents of larger families look bad on this forum. This is not the only way to do it, and a lot of us don’t rely on older children to do our own parenting roles and responsibilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Oldest daughter of a large family here. You sweet summer child. You have no idea.

+100

Actually I don't think you can claim to know this.
I'm the opposite - I was one of two and longed for siblings so much. I was maternal and would have loved this role. I now have a larger sized family. It really is dependent on the child and what they like. Some love the number of children in their family, clearly some think it's too many and some (like me) think it wasn't enough. I found it isolating being raised essentially as an only as my sibling was much older and dinners out with two older parents were "boring". People on this thread act as if being raised with only 1 or 2 children is ideal. It may be for some, and not for others.
There isn't a "right" answer. So much generalizing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you've always craved the power and adoration afforded to cult leaders, but don't have the natural charisma to gain followers of your own...have 4+ kids instead.

But seriously, folks, this article just promotes the age-old parenting technique called "neglect." You can do neglect with any number of offspring, but at the 4+ range it just happens naturally.

Parents who have large families always say they are doing it for the kids, but in reality, they are doing it for themselves. The power, attention, adoration, etc is unparalleled. All the kids' needs come secondary to the parents'.

Please, dear poster, telling me where this is coming from. It's not from my kids, it's not from friends and it's certainly not from DCUM. The worst thing about having several kids is that you're only as happy as the least happy one.
- mom of 6
This might be the strangest comment I've read here yet. People think we're nuts. Did you even read the thread before asserting this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wanting a lot of kids is fine. Not wanting a lot of kids is fine. Saying people should have a lot of kids is gross and creepy.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have four close in age. The oldest was 5 when the youngest was born. None of them changed their sibling’s diapers, but I would definitely say that they help with parenting in that they monitor each other’s behavior and speak up if someone says something rude or uncaring. It’s one thing to have your mom tell you that girls won’t like it if you don’t brush your teeth before school. It’s another thing to have your sister say it. They also help each other with homework and with generally keeping the routine of the household.
We do have one with ASD, and I probably would do more for him if he was my only child. But I also think he would have no real friends and no teenage chats into the night if it weren’t for his brothers and sister. I also don’t think anyone would call him out for being a jerk. Because sometimes he is.
I don’t know. I like having 4, and I think it’s easier in some ways. It is definitely more cooking and laundry though. There are no two ways around that.

Kids really don't have the appropriate judgement or perspective to do this appropriately. I grew up in a family with 4 kids and my parents left us to self police and work out conflicts. It resulted in a very Lord of the Flies childhood with rampant sibling bullying and abuse. We don't speak as adults because of the deep and permanent wounds that resulted from intense sibling rivalry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have six in a mixed family and I have always been very firm that the oldest won't raise the younger ones. If we ask them to babysit we pay them and they are free to say no thank you.

As an oldest child, and on behalf of the rest of us, I salute you!

[Anonymous]

I was the oldest of 4 and confirm I was parentified (I did a lot of the parenting once I was old enough).

I'm sure it was great for my mother and father. It led me to have 1 child because I had no desire to raise a gaggle of children. I already did that as a teen, thanks no thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have four close in age. The oldest was 5 when the youngest was born. None of them changed their sibling’s diapers, but I would definitely say that they help with parenting in that they monitor each other’s behavior and speak up if someone says something rude or uncaring. It’s one thing to have your mom tell you that girls won’t like it if you don’t brush your teeth before school. It’s another thing to have your sister say it. They also help each other with homework and with generally keeping the routine of the household.
We do have one with ASD, and I probably would do more for him if he was my only child. But I also think he would have no real friends and no teenage chats into the night if it weren’t for his brothers and sister. I also don’t think anyone would call him out for being a jerk. Because sometimes he is.
I don’t know. I like having 4, and I think it’s easier in some ways. It is definitely more cooking and laundry though. There are no two ways around that.

Kids really don't have the appropriate judgement or perspective to do this appropriately. I grew up in a family with 4 kids and my parents left us to self police and work out conflicts. It resulted in a very Lord of the Flies childhood with rampant sibling bullying and abuse. We don't speak as adults because of the deep and permanent wounds that resulted from intense sibling rivalry.

I am one of two and this was the case in my family, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every family I know with four or more kids is raising their children in an environment with fewer resources and less attention than a 1 or 2 child family.

There are only 24 hours in a day and only 2 parents max. It’s a bad move and you’re doing a disservice to your children having this many kids. It was fine when it was normal to have that many kids but it no longer is.

Why was it fine back then and not now? The kids still had fewer resources and less attention back then. I think maybe 2 children is fine but having only 1 causes its own issues. Honestly there’s issues with any number of kids, and some of these families with a lot of kids at least have massive financial resources to throw at problems and they know it.

It wasn’t fine but people had lower standards and didn’t have birth control.

Your children will judge their childhood and life in comparison to modern day standards and how their peers are living.

There is a family across the street from me where their children don’t have birthday parties and aren’t enrolled in any activities. This is a disadvantage for their kids. Their children aren’t getting the opportunity to learn different sports. The children are also overweight which is unusual in my community and has some correlation to not being enrolled in any athletics. Because there are five children the kids travel less frequently because who wants to take 5 kids on vacation? The mom can’t work so she has no outlet outside of the family. The kids have less privacy and room to study. They don’t leave their home often since it requires two vehicles. It’s a rotten deal for the kids. They have plenty of money too.

If they actually have plenty of money, why don't they have a car large enough to take 7? I have a 15 year old mini van and could drive 5 kids plus 2 adults around if needed (I only have 2 kids). If they have plenty of money, why don't they enroll their kids in activities and have birthday parties? Usually people don't do those things because it's too $$. Don't say it's because they don't have time because they could arrange carpools for activities, they could combine kids' bdays to have one big party, etc. It can be done. It sounds like with the family you're talking about they have other issues (depression? social anxiety? health issues?) going on that you don't know about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you've always craved the power and adoration afforded to cult leaders, but don't have the natural charisma to gain followers of your own...have 4+ kids instead.

But seriously, folks, this article just promotes the age-old parenting technique called "neglect." You can do neglect with any number of offspring, but at the 4+ range it just happens naturally.

Parents who have large families always say they are doing it for the kids, but in reality, they are doing it for themselves. The power, attention, adoration, etc is unparalleled. All the kids' needs come secondary to the parents'.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the eldest girl in a big family (5 kids) and I think my parents tried hard not to force me to raise my younger siblings. I loved having a younger sister in particular and enjoyed taking care of her. What I did not enjoy was never ever getting any focused attention from my dad and very little from my mom. One sibling had significant issues and any bandwidth went to dealing with him (and it wasn’t enough). I wanted a different experience for my own kids, which is why I only have 2.

This was my experience in a big family. I was one of the kids kind of lost in the middle -- not the youngest or the oldest, a "good" kid who got good grades and didn't complain. I had several experiences early on where it was made clear to me that needing any extra attention -- to deal with recurrent nightmares, to help with social adjustment to school, etc. -- would be seen as an annoying distraction from all the other kids. So I learned to have no problems. Ever. In some ways this did make me resilient and independent, just like Carney suggest. It also means that as an adult, I am allergic to asking for help or even just telling someone when something is going on. I apologize for myself compulsively and have very low self esteem, something that has made both relationships and my career difficult. A few years ago I realized that I just carry around this longing to be seen and hear and understood, and I don't think anyone will ever be able to satisfy it because what I really want is to be a child and to be loved and seen in the way kids all want to be loved and seen. But I'm not a child and I'll never be one again so I just have to live with that feeling of absence.

I don't think all kids from big families feel that way, but I do. And I happen to know that another of my siblings feels the same. So I'm skeptical that large families can really meet the needs of every single kid. And it might seem like no big deal if 1 out of 6, or 2 out of 8, have this feeling of loss. But if you are the one experiencing it, it's deeply painful, a wound that will never heal.

so much of what you wrote resonated with me. it’s truly not something that ever gets discussed! I don’t think I’ve ever really met another one of us in person.

It resonates with me as one of two. I wouldn’t assume kids from smaller families feel “seen and heard”. Sometimes kids just don’t feel that connection, or the parents aren’t very emotional or both are working at intense careers or whatever the case may be.

[Anonymous]

I just want to note that a family with 6 biological kids (assuming no twins) means their mother has spent approximately 5 years pregnant, 6 childbirths, 6 postpartum recoveries. If she breastfed, she may have essentially done it continuously for like 10 years, or even just doing it off and on for 10 years (or more!). I'm sure she doesn't work, but if she did and took a maternity leave, she'd have taken somewhere between 9 months and 3 years off from her career in intervals. If she has any physical challenges related to her pregnancies, she may deal with either chronic pain, physical limitations, or have had to pursue years of PT or other medical attention to heal from those.

I'm sure this particular woman has no issue with any of that, perhaps even loves it. Some women really do love being pregnant and some women's bodies handle pregnancy very easily. Some women would rather be home caring for kids than in a career, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all if they can find a way to work that out -- birthing and raising children is important, meaningful work that is often taken for granted.

But to advocate for more people to have 4 or more kids without once acknowledging the literal labor that *someone else* went through, and continues to go through, to allow you to have the large family of your dreams, is grotesque. Not one word to note the sacrifice of FIVE YEARS of pregnancy, even if undertaken joyfully?

What a joke. I predict that at least 30 percent of this man's kids will absolutely hate him when they are adults, and I think that's a low estimate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom of five here. It is 100 percent easier to have 5 kids than 3. I found 3 the absolute hardest. Now my older kids entertain and help with the younger kids. The year my third was born was the least happy year of my life. I am now the happiest I have ever been since becoming a mom with my fifth almost turning one. I am way more relaxed and it is 100 percent true that older kids help so much. For example on Saturday mornings I will wake up and my 12 year old has changed my toddler's diaper, turned on his cartoon, and gotten him a bowl of cheerios while I lounge in bed with DH.

What I am looking forward to is parents of 2-3 kids trying to explain why those of us with 4+ don't actually know what we are talking about when we say it's easier and we are happier than you all.

Oh and PS my career is on fire.

Good for you - now what is your waist measurement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom of five here. It is 100 percent easier to have 5 kids than 3. I found 3 the absolute hardest. Now my older kids entertain and help with the younger kids. The year my third was born was the least happy year of my life. I am now the happiest I have ever been since becoming a mom with my fifth almost turning one. I am way more relaxed and it is 100 percent true that older kids help so much. For example on Saturday mornings I will wake up and my 12 year old has changed my toddler's diaper, turned on his cartoon, and gotten him a bowl of cheerios while I lounge in bed with DH.

What I am looking forward to is parents of 2-3 kids trying to explain why those of us with 4+ don't actually know what we are talking about when we say it's easier and we are happier than you all.

Oh and PS my career is on fire.

Good for you - now what is your waist measurement?

Oh and hows the old pelvic floor???

I have one awesome child and I do not pee myself when I sneeze, how about you?