Have colleges totally lost their value as a signal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Data:

“ Asian Americans in the Harvard Class of 1995 have the highest average SAT scores of the groups within Harvard College, according to the report. The study also shows that Blacks in the Harvard Class of 1994 were admitted to the College at a higher rate than any other minority group.

Harvard's Black students in the class of 1995 have the lowest average SAT scores, and Asian and Native Americans in the class of 1994 were admitted at rates below the overall average, the report says.

Harvard's Asian Americans in the Class of 1995 have average SAT scores of 1450, Blacks averaged scores of 1290, whites scored 1400 and Hispanics averaged 1310, the report states.

Overall, students in the Harvard class of 1995 averaged 1390 total on the test. Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons '67 said this is the first time ever that a mean SAT score for Harvard has been disclosed.

Harvard's average SAT scores for the class of 1995 rank the highest out of all polled institutions, with Yale second at 1350, and Princeton third at 1340, according to the study.”

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1993/5/7/report-discloses-sats-admit-rate-pa/

Exactly , the Black and Brown students today have much higher scores than the white students of yesterday but that doesn't matter to many of you because a Black person can't "possibly" be smarter than you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the current generation of college student parents applied to and attended college, [i]there was a clear correlation between intelligence and school reputation/ranking. The kid who attended Yale was almost always going to be a top of the class student with essentially perfect academics. The kid who attended Denison or UMD was a nice, reasonably bright kid who basically did their homework. It’s different now in so many ways. In general the Yale kid is going to be the better student but there is also the dei/hook wrinkle, the donut hole factor, and even in general now the gap isn’t that wide. So a generation ago basically all Yale kids were a cut above Denison/UMD kids, now it’s probably just that most are (meaning some if not many are equivalent or below). Seems likely going forward there will be less reliance on where you did your undergrad as a heuristic to assess younger adults. Add to this the complication that the products of the most elite schools now may be more likely to have seriously deformed moral and political sensibilities.

This has literally never been the case. The elite colleges have always had a big share of legacies and/or business or politically influential students. And Denison and UMD have always had a good number of students who could go to Yale, but just didn’t get in (or didn’t even apply). There used to be more barriers to entry. The common app has made it so much easier for kids to apply broadly. I grew up 60 miles from a top 20 university in the 90s. My HS was rural and in a poor community. The counselor could not even remember anyone from my HS applying there. I had to call the college and ask them to mail me an application and use a typewriter to fill it in.

Your post just feels like a thinly veiled screed against DEI. I’m not sure what to make of your last sentence. What are you even talking about?

Op here - DEI is part of it because it has undermined merit but also the fact admissions has become hypercompetitive (demographics) which means [b]the difference between tier one and tier two is almost immeasurably small now. And tuition is so ridiculous now that even upper middle class families have to pursue cheaper options. The end result is schools are no longer really sorting students as they did in the past. My last sentence is a statement suggesting I am repulsed by much of the behavior recently displayed by attendees of “elite” institutions- and I am not alone in that sentiment.

This has always been the case. You are just noticing now because it's affecting your family.

So much this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the current generation of college student parents applied to and attended college, there was a clear correlation between intelligence and school reputation/ranking. The kid who attended Yale was almost always going to be a top of the class student with essentially perfect academics. The kid who attended Denison or UMD was a nice, reasonably bright kid who basically did their homework. It’s different now in so many ways. In general the Yale kid is going to be the better student but there is also the dei/hook wrinkle, the donut hole factor, and even in general now the gap isn’t that wide. So a generation ago basically all Yale kids were a cut above Denison/UMD kids, now it’s probably just that most are (meaning some if not many are equivalent or below). Seems likely going forward there will be less reliance on where you did your undergrad as a heuristic to assess younger adults. Add to this the complication that the products of the most elite schools now may be more likely to have seriously deformed moral and political sensibilities.

And yet Yale’s graduation rate suggests that everyone they admit can do the work, which really is the main qualification, right?


So they’re really not accepting any unqualified applicants are they?

Yale and its peers have trouble retaining test optional applicants, athletes, etc., in math-heavy majors. Can they get everyone through to a BA in studio art? Of course.

Cite?

Did we just have a thread bout how 80% (about, don’t remember the exact %) of grades at Yale are As or A-s?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data:

“ Asian Americans in the Harvard Class of 1995 have the highest average SAT scores of the groups within Harvard College, according to the report. The study also shows that Blacks in the Harvard Class of 1994 were admitted to the College at a higher rate than any other minority group.

Harvard's Black students in the class of 1995 have the lowest average SAT scores, and Asian and Native Americans in the class of 1994 were admitted at rates below the overall average, the report says.

Harvard's Asian Americans in the Class of 1995 have average SAT scores of 1450, Blacks averaged scores of 1290, whites scored 1400 and Hispanics averaged 1310, the report states.

Overall, students in the Harvard class of 1995 averaged 1390 total on the test. Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons '67 said this is the first time ever that a mean SAT score for Harvard has been disclosed.

Harvard's average SAT scores for the class of 1995 rank the highest out of all polled institutions, with Yale second at 1350, and Princeton third at 1340, according to the study.”

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1993/5/7/report-discloses-sats-admit-rate-pa/

Exactly , the Black and Brown students today have much higher scores than the white students of yesterday but that doesn't matter to many of you because a Black person can't "possibly" be smarter than you.

You conveniently ignore that SAT scores today cannot be compared to 20 years ago because the SAT rescored significantly (effectively inflating the scores). Other posters have explained several times. White students and Asian students still significantly[i] outscore black students.

[Anonymous]

And you conveniently ignore that, above a certain SAT score, colleges don't really care that much anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the current generation of college student parents applied to and attended college, there was a clear correlation between intelligence and school reputation/ranking. The kid who attended Yale was almost always going to be a top of the class student with essentially perfect academics. The kid who attended Denison or UMD was a nice, reasonably bright kid who basically did their homework. It’s different now in so many ways. In general the Yale kid is going to be the better student but there is also the dei/hook wrinkle, the donut hole factor, and even in general now the gap isn’t that wide. So a generation ago basically all Yale kids were a cut above Denison/UMD kids, now it’s probably just that most are (meaning some if not many are equivalent or below). Seems likely going forward there will be less reliance on where you did your undergrad as a heuristic to assess younger adults. Add to this the complication that the products of the most elite schools now may be more likely to have seriously deformed moral and political sensibilities.

And yet Yale’s graduation rate suggests that everyone they admit can do the work, which really is the main qualification, right?


So they’re really not accepting any unqualified applicants are they?

Yale and its peers have trouble retaining test optional applicants, athletes, etc., in math-heavy majors. Can they get everyone through to a BA in studio art? Of course.

Yale University boasts impressive graduation rates, with 97% of students graduating, placing it in the top 5% of institutions. The retention rate is also high at 98%, and the 6-year graduation rate stands at 97%. Furthermore, the 4-year graduation rate is 88%, which is also within the top 5%.

https://research.com/best-colleges/yale-university/graduation-rate-and-career

But don't let facts and data get in the way of your narrative of made up stuff.

Where’s the data saying that everyone who started freshman year as a physics major graduated as a physics major?

Nowhere.

My claim is that people change majors, and weaker students often change from harder majors to easier majors.

You’re the one making half a**ed assertions. Where is your data showing the “DEI admits” who start in STEM heavy majors end up in “studio art” (which, BTW, takes talent too)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data:

“ Asian Americans in the Harvard Class of 1995 have the highest average SAT scores of the groups within Harvard College, according to the report. The study also shows that Blacks in the Harvard Class of 1994 were admitted to the College at a higher rate than any other minority group.

Harvard's Black students in the class of 1995 have the lowest average SAT scores, and Asian and Native Americans in the class of 1994 were admitted at rates below the overall average, the report says.

Harvard's Asian Americans in the Class of 1995 have average SAT scores of 1450, Blacks averaged scores of 1290, whites scored 1400 and Hispanics averaged 1310, the report states.

Overall, students in the Harvard class of 1995 averaged 1390 total on the test. Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons '67 said this is the first time ever that a mean SAT score for Harvard has been disclosed.

Harvard's average SAT scores for the class of 1995 rank the highest out of all polled institutions, with Yale second at 1350, and Princeton third at 1340, according to the study.”

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1993/5/7/report-discloses-sats-admit-rate-pa/

So much has changed since 1995. Nearly 30 years the average SAT Harvard students was 1390. Now the average SAT score for Black Harvard students is higher than that. Did everyone get a lot smarter? Did everyone start prepping even harder? Online resources like Khan Academy have surely moved the needle.

Also, to be clear, I recognize that there are some Black students at Harvard with 1550 scores etc. So don't think I'm not giving them credit for their merits.

They’ve re-normed the test twice since then. A 1390 in ‘95 is equivalent to a mid 1500’s in todays scores.

While the rescoring is reasonably known, what is less discussed is that the SATs themselves have also changed to try to make it, let's put it this way, easier for certain groups to do better. But what happened is that in doing so, the SATs became much easier to prep and game for, which is why scores for other groups got much higher too.

Uh, it is easier for all groups. That is why it doesn't test anything other than how good people can take the test. It doesn't test knowledge, capacity to learn, capacity to be innovative, writing skills or anything else. Given the number of kids who can game the test, the schools realize there is little reason to require it anymore.

The disparity between black and Asian and white scores still remain significant even if it is now easier for all groups to prep for the SATs. No one really wants to talk about why black students, after all these years, still don't perform as well on the SATs as white students or Asian students or even Latino students, or white working class Asian and white kids still outperform affluent black kids, so they come up with all sorts of explanations to circumvent this topic. The SATs still remain essential for elite college admissions even if colleges theoretically make them optional, which is really a cue word saying it's ok for black applicants to leave them off so we can hide the SAT gap, but not other races, who won't be considered if they don't include their SAT scores. It's just the game as it is currently played.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: No Asian for example would ever be admitted on the basis of the minimum qualification that is claimed to exist.

This is false. At any school where an Asian is a URM they would benefit from the policy.

There are Asians with sub-1400 SAT scores in non-STEM fields. We met one when we toured Yale who was strongly encouraged to apply by his GC (so probably stellar recs). White kids applying from Wyoming and Idaho are not typically 1450+ scorers either. They're getting in because they're bringing attributes the school values that other students don't have or can't fulfill. The difference is that people like you assume they're high stats because of their race if they're admitted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The disparity between black and Asian and white scores still remain significant even if it is now easier for all groups to prep for the SATs. No one really wants to talk about why black students, after all these years, still don't perform as well on the SATs as white students or Asian students or even Latino students, or white working class Asian and white kids still outperform affluent black kids, so they come up with all sorts of explanations to circumvent this topic. The SATs still remain essential for elite college admissions even if colleges theoretically make them optional, which is really a cue word saying it's ok for black applicants to leave them off so we can hide the SAT gap, but not other races, who won't be considered if they don't include their SAT scores. It's just the game as it is currently played.

It just kills you that the Supreme Court won't do anything about colleges admitting based on geographic diversity, first generation status, and other similar factors, huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anybody else wondering if OP is on a bender?

Raises hand

Or, OP’s kid is a HYP legacy who just learned that they will disgrace the family by having to attend (lowers voice) UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When the current generation of college student parents applied to and attended college, there was a clear correlation between intelligence and school reputation/ranking. The kid who attended Yale was almost always going to be a top of the class student with essentially perfect academics. The kid who attended Denison or UMD was a nice, reasonably bright kid who basically did their homework. It’s different now in so many ways. In general the Yale kid is going to be the better student but there is also the dei/hook wrinkle, the donut hole factor, and even in general now the gap isn’t that wide. So a generation ago basically all Yale kids were a cut above Denison/UMD kids, now it’s probably just that most are (meaning some if not many are equivalent or below). Seems likely going forward there will be less reliance on where you did your undergrad as a heuristic to assess younger adults. Add to this the complication that the products of the most elite schools now may be more likely to have seriously deformed moral and political sensibilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op is downgrading her argument to language that is more reasonable

Yep. I’m sure we’d all love it if OP would expound on the last sentence of the OP:

Add to this the complication that the products of the most elite schools now may be more likely to have seriously deformed moral and political sensibilities. ]

Especially in light of the fact that these schools have, ay various points, quite openly have discriminated against URMs, women, Asians and Jewish applicants in the admissions process. And the poors, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems likely going forward there will be less reliance on where you did your undergrad as a heuristic to assess younger adults.

Cutting this question down to the basic gist – this is true, and it's a good thing.

What I want for my kid is a good education. Not just current knowledge in a broad array of subjects – and more deep, specialized info in his major – but also the ongoing ability to think critically, recognize good information sources, and consider things from a variety of angles and viewpoints.

So basically: the ability to stay curious and keep learning even after the bachelor's degree is in hand. My kid may get a master's, but even if not, I want the bachelor's to provide a solid orientation on being a thoughtful person who can also, you know, support himself.

And ideally, a good friend group – a posse – that will be an ongoing part of his life even if they all move to different locations after graduation.

This result can come from a lot of different schools. A great personal fit for your kid will be much more important in the long run than a brand name (which will vary in value as time goes on anyway).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Data:

“ Asian Americans in the Harvard Class of 1995 have the highest average SAT scores of the groups within Harvard College, according to the report. The study also shows that Blacks in the Harvard Class of 1994 were admitted to the College at a higher rate than any other minority group.

Harvard's Black students in the class of 1995 have the lowest average SAT scores, and Asian and Native Americans in the class of 1994 were admitted at rates below the overall average, the report says.

Harvard's Asian Americans in the Class of 1995 have average SAT scores of 1450, Blacks averaged scores of 1290, whites scored 1400 and Hispanics averaged 1310, the report states.

Overall, students in the Harvard class of 1995 averaged 1390 total on the test. Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid William R. Fitzsimmons '67 said this is the first time ever that a mean SAT score for Harvard has been disclosed.

Harvard's average SAT scores for the class of 1995 rank the highest out of all polled institutions, with Yale second at 1350, and Princeton third at 1340, according to the study.”

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1993/5/7/report-discloses-sats-admit-rate-pa/

Exactly , the Black and Brown students today have much higher scores than the white students of yesterday but that doesn't matter to many of you because a Black person can't "possibly" be smarter than you.

They aren't taking the same test today as they did then. There is about a 150 point difference on recentering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When the current generation of college student parents applied to and attended college, there was a clear correlation between intelligence and school reputation/ranking. The kid who attended Yale was almost always going to be a top of the class student with essentially perfect academics.

I went to HYP in the early 90s, and...no.

A huge chunk of my classmates (including me) were from the next tier -- top 10 or 20 percent from affluent suburban public schools, with very good but not perfect grades or SAT scores, well-rounded but not necessarily pointy extracurriculars. Or those from elite feeder private schools who weren't necessarily at the top of their class, but good enough because back then there weren't tens of thousands of other applicants.