Regular classes vs AAP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:^^ Or be like DC where principals have to host pizza parties and field trips to get kids to come to school.

And you wonder why we parents in crappy schools move or try to get our kids into AAP, a better learning environment where kids want to learn and other parents care.

These people are the ones who in other school districts send their kids to private. It's not fair to general ed kids that you get your own separate private school inside FCPS.

I understand but why can't school go back to being what is was.

DP. Because the school board is composed of left-wing activists who want all kids to reach only the lowest common denominator and spend far too much time focusing on social issues rather than academics. And that will not change because the same kinds of people keep being voted in. Glad we’re almost done with FCPS.

Another DP. It's not just that (though activitists on both sides focusing on culture war issues rather than academics doesn't help the academics, that's for sure). I have a friend who is on a school board in a different part of the country where the agitators are mostly on the right of the political spectrum. They aren't pushing for effective curriculum/instruction either - though they should be.

The problem what the teacher's colleges have taught teachers for decades is the best way to teach. Research shows that kids learn well in quiet classrooms when taught from a (no joke) script.

This goes way beyond phonics - which FCPS and VDOE are finally catching up to after states like TN and MS made them look silly with amazing improvements in reading - to writing, math, and content areas. As kids who were taught in ineffective ways in elementary school make it to high school we're seeing the sky is falling reports from the dropping test scores. The pandemic closures only exacerbated the bad trends, but they started before with the poor ways kids are taught these days. Lucy Caulkins' bad approach to reading and writing has also been incorporated into bad approaches in math with those ridiculous "mini lessons" and "centers" things which lead to kids winging their learning in overstimulating classrooms. Plus don't get me started on the fact that FCPS outsources grammar instruction to Lexia and some of math instruction ST Math.

And so yes, parents push to try and work around it however they can. Not that AAP is that great, as 12/24/23 15:59 pointed it, but at least it's not AS bad.

[Anonymous]

My kids were not in AAP. They are now in high school and doing better than a lot of the kids who left their elementary school for the center AAP school. It’s not the be all end all.

[Anonymous]

If bon AAP students result same as AAP then perhaps AAP need faster acceleration

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s all an attempt to appease the crazy parents. There’s not much meaningful difference at all. Science is science. Social studies is social studies. The LA is the LA. Only the math pulls ahead by one year but does so at a fast rate that most kids lack the in-depth practice needed to fully cook in the fundamentals to cruise through 7th grade Algebra. So, the tutoring clubs are utilized heavily by this crowd through early elementary years and pre-K years.

Yeah only real difference is math is a bit ahead. They’ll cover some of the VA math standards for the next grade too. But some of the VA math standards are a bit behind common core anyway, so I don’t think AAP gives them that big of an advantage for what math they can take in middle school. Many of the kids in AAP take advanced math outside of school and that’s honestly what gets most of them ahead and probably what helped most of them even get into AAP. Obviously you need money to send your kids to advanced math courses outside of school, so it really is kind of a way to appease wealthy parents and give them hope their kids will get into a great college someday.

If your kid doesn’t get into AAP I wouldn’t fret. Teach them some of the math standards for the next grade at home or send them to classes or a tutor if you can afford it. You can find the standards online. AAP seems to be a Virginia thing, and particularly near DC in the wealthier areas. Many schools just have third grade and just fourth grade with no AAP or gifted option. The few truly gifted kids just get a plan and some pull out time with a special educator. It’s really no big deal if your kid doesn’t get in but if they do that’s great too!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The problem what the teacher's colleges have taught teachers for decades is the best way to teach. Research shows that kids learn well in quiet classrooms when taught from a (no joke) script.

This goes way beyond phonics - which FCPS and VDOE are finally catching up to after states like TN and MS made them look silly with amazing improvements in reading - to writing, math, and content areas.

As kids who were taught in ineffective ways in elementary school make it to high school we're seeing the sky is falling reports from the dropping test scores. The pandemic closures only exacerbated the bad trends, but they started before with the poor ways kids are taught these days.

Lucy Caulkins' bad approach to reading and writing has also been incorporated into bad approaches in math with those ridiculous "mini lessons" and "centers" things which lead to kids winging their learning in overstimulating classrooms. Plus don't get me started on the fact that FCPS outsources grammar instruction to Lexia and some of math instruction to ST Math.

Quote above sounds remarkably consistent with what our neighbors have been saying about the broad decline in academics within FCPS over the last 20-25 years.

AoPS, Kumon, Mathnasium, and RSM have outlets all over Northern VA and also Montgomery County MD. They would not stay in business if there were not lots of demand from parents to make sure their kids learn math & read well. When I pass by those parking lots, I see many cars with FCPS school stickers on the back - and also a few cars with stickers for independent or parochial schools.

[Anonymous]

The "AAP" name and the specifics of the two-track approach are an FCPS thing. APS and LCPS and PWPS have different names and also different approaches (different from FCPS and from each other).

It is not obvious to me if any of those other G&T schemes (or their Maryland equivalents) are better or worse or just different.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All the AAP hate absolutely tells me it’s the right answer for my AAP kid.

Imagine trying to claim FCPS is pumping millions and millions of dollars and logistics challenges, and overhead into an advanced learning infrastructure that is really just some extra math….

Love this forum.

DP. FCPS doesn't spend millions on AAP but I agree that the hostility towards academically gifted kids makes AAP the right place for some kids to escape to, including mine.

The only reason there is hostility towards AAP kids is because this system exists, PP. If there wasn't such a huge differentiation, it it wasn't such a competitive process, there wouldn't be any hate. There was absolutely no hatred for children in the gifted program and children who were grouped into different language arts and math programs according to ability in the school system we moved here from. AAP is very different.

+1
I grew up in FCPS when there was an actual GT program - very tiny and very selective. No one was resentful of the few kids who were chosen to participate because it was obvious they *needed* a gifted learning environment. All the rest of the kids - from extremely bright to bright to average to below average - were in flexible groupings depending on their abilities. It worked for everyone and there was no HUGE group of yellow-bellied Sneetches vs another HUGE group of non-yellow-bellied Sneetches.

Our FCPS school is doing this - they call it the cluster model - and most families that were eligible to leave for the AAP center left to go there, and it is much better without an AAP program (there is still accelerated math, kids are grouped according to ability). I think all schools should go back to this way of doing things.

No, it was called tracking and is inequitable. Most of the impoverished and new arrivals at our Title 1 school would end up in the lower groups.

DP. How on earth is that any more “inequitable” than the current AAP/GenEd divide? Ridiculous. Flexible grouping is equitable for ALL.

Except the teacher

Are you deliberately ignoring all the posts that have described what flexible grouping should look like? Each grade level has a team of teachers. One teacher would be assigned "Group A" level students, another Group B, etc. So each teacher would only have one level to teach at any given time. Not multiple levels all together in one class.

For instance, for Language Arts, kids would go to the classroom/group they have tested into. And if their abilities change (up or down), they would then be assigned to a different group. Same for all core subjects. No one is locked into any one level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The state of Virginia has a law that gifted services must be offered. It's on the continuum of special education.

Sure - then a real GT program should be brought back for the very small minority of kids who are actually in need of gifted education. AAP is not gifted education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids were not in AAP. They are now in high school and doing better than a lot of the kids who left their elementary school for the center AAP school. It’s not the be all end all.

Totally agree with you - but the point is that AAP shouldn't exist at all. The division and resentment it creates in elementary school is ridiculous and unnecessary. Flexible groupings is the way to go, as described in earlier posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids were not in AAP. They are now in high school and doing better than a lot of the kids who left their elementary school for the center AAP school. It’s not the be all end all.

Totally agree with you - but the point is that AAP shouldn't exist at all. The division and resentment it creates in elementary school is ridiculous and unnecessary. Flexible groupings is the way to go, as described in earlier posts.

Agree that flexible grouping is the way to go in elementary school.

But starting in middle school FCPS needs to allow for differentiation of ability by offering advanced math, science, foreign language course etc., taught by qualified teachers.

Instead of closing the gap by lowering the bar, each child should have an opportunity to reach their full potential.

Unfortunately , that will widen the achievement gap between the strongest and weakest student. But again the goal of public education must be to have every child reach their full potential, whatever that potential is, not to achieve equitable outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids were not in AAP. They are now in high school and doing better than a lot of the kids who left their elementary school for the center AAP school. It’s not the be all end all.

Totally agree with you - but the point is that AAP shouldn't exist at all. The division and resentment it creates in elementary school is ridiculous and unnecessary. Flexible groupings is the way to go, as described in earlier posts.

Agree that flexible grouping is the way to go in elementary school.

But starting in middle school FCPS needs to allow for differentiation of ability by offering advanced math, science, foreign language course etc., taught by qualified teachers.

Instead of closing the gap by lowering the bar, each child should have an opportunity to reach their full potential.

Unfortunately , that will widen the achievement gap between the strongest and weakest student. But again the goal of public education must be to have every child reach their full potential, whatever that potential is, not to achieve equitable outcomes.

Those middle school classes need to be gated like they were when pure GT existed in elementary school here in FCPS. But that will inevitably lead to crying about equity. Equity is a massive focus by FCPS and this will result in the removal or watering down of any advanced studies in elementary or middle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids were not in AAP. They are now in high school and doing better than a lot of the kids who left their elementary school for the center AAP school. It’s not the be all end all.

Totally agree with you - but the point is that AAP shouldn't exist at all. The division and resentment it creates in elementary school is ridiculous and unnecessary. Flexible groupings is the way to go, as described in earlier posts.

Agree that flexible grouping is the way to go in elementary school.

But starting in middle school FCPS needs to allow for differentiation of ability by offering advanced math, science, foreign language course etc., taught by qualified teachers.

Instead of closing the gap by lowering the bar, each child should have an opportunity to reach their full potential.

Unfortunately , that will widen the achievement gap between the strongest and weakest student. But again the goal of public education must be to have every child reach their full potential, whatever that potential is, not to achieve equitable outcomes.

Flexible grouping is all well and good as long as the kids aren't in the same class. I've only seen one teacher out of the many ES teachers my kids have had who could actually ability group within a classroom with any level of effectiveness. Excellent, even award winning teachers don't necessarily manage it. They have too much other junk to deal with.

You have to let different teachers teach the different groups. Sure, move kids around within tracks, but don't expect the same poor teacher to handle all of the tracks.

And as PPs keep saying, gifted education is mandated by the state. You can remove AAP and bring back GT or something, but you have to have something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the AAP hate absolutely tells me it’s the right answer for my AAP kid.

Imagine trying to claim FCPS is pumping millions and millions of dollars and logistics challenges, and overhead into an advanced learning infrastructure that is really just some extra math….

Love this forum.

DP. FCPS doesn't spend millions on AAP but I agree that the hostility towards academically gifted kids makes AAP the right place for some kids to escape to, including mine.

The only reason there is hostility towards AAP kids is because this system exists, PP. If there wasn't such a huge differentiation, it it wasn't such a competitive process, there wouldn't be any hate. There was absolutely no hatred for children in the gifted program and children who were grouped into different language arts and math programs according to ability in the school system we moved here from. AAP is very different.

+1
I grew up in FCPS when there was an actual GT program - very tiny and very selective. No one was resentful of the few kids who were chosen to participate because it was obvious they *needed* a gifted learning environment. All the rest of the kids - from extremely bright to bright to average to below average - were in flexible groupings depending on their abilities. It worked for everyone and there was no HUGE group of yellow-bellied Sneetches vs another HUGE group of non-yellow-bellied Sneetches.

Our FCPS school is doing this - they call it the cluster model - and most families that were eligible to leave for the AAP center left to go there, and it is much better without an AAP program (there is still accelerated math, kids are grouped according to ability). I think all schools should go back to this way of doing things.

No, it was called tracking and is inequitable. Most of the impoverished and new arrivals at our Title 1 school would end up in the lower groups.

You mean to tell me that you believe that grouping kids by ability is problematic? That allowing Teachers to focus on a group of kids at the same general level and focus their attention on each group is problematic? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? How is placing kids in a classroom with 5 different levels, forcing the Teacher to divide their time and attention between 5 different groups, a good idea? The Teacher has to spend most of their time with the kids who are struggling so they kids who are ahead or are on level are left to do their own work with little to no guidance.

Is that fair because the kids who are on level or ahead get bored and end up slowing down so that the kids who are below grade level can catch them?

All kids deserve an education. We need to stop sacrificing kids who are on grade level or ahead in the name of maintaining optics that make people happy. The impoverished kids at any school need to be in classes that help them get to grade level without holding back the kids on grade level. Inclusion has not worked to close the education gap, it has only gotten larger. The education gap was increasing before COVID, COVID made it worse, but inclusion was failing before COVID. So we need to try something else.

I don’t think you understand. We need to take crates away from tall kids so short kids can see the baseball game.

The inclusive classroom isn’t working. The kids who start behind are continuing to fall behind. Maintaining this system is only hurting the kids who are on or ahead of grade level. It has not helped the kids who started behind. If you are so blind as to to see that the current paradigm is not doing anything to help the kids who start behind then I don’t know what to say to you.

Right, so why is it that we are separating out so-called advanced kids? Please explain to me how that benefits the kids who are behind??

It only benefits a handful of minority kids who are truly advanced and mostly upper middle class white and asian families who can afford tutoring and test prep. That's literally it.

Tracking benefits kids by meeting them at their level. LIV kids in their own class mean that the Teachers can meet the needs of those kids. It also means that a Teacher in a Gen Ed class does not need to prepare lesson plans for 7 groups of kids, only 4-5. If we used a real tracking system, Teachers would only have to meet the needs of 2-3 groups of kids instead of 5 groups.

But we won’t place kids into classes based on ability all around because we know that the kids in the lower tracks will be lower SES kids, typically Black and Hispanic, while kids in the middle track will be middle class kids that are of all colors, and higher track kids are more likely to middle income to higher income kids that are predominately White and Asian. We are petrified of that optic.

So we have a watered down advanced track that is predominately White and Asian and lump everyone else into one classroom in the name of inclusivity. The LIV class does not serve it’s intended purpose because parents prep kids on the tests to score higher because they are desperate to get their kids out of the Gen Ed classes. They are desperate to get their kids out of Gen Ed classrooms because Teachers are teaching to kids who are 2-3 years below grade level, kids on grade level, and a few kids who are ahead. Now the LIV class inclides kids who are 2-3 ahead and kids who are a year ahead in one area, which waters down that track. But that is still better then the Gen Ed classroom that is focused ont he kids who are 2-3 years behind.

The Teachers don’t have the time to teach to all the different groups. The kids who are far behind keep falling further behind. The kids on grade level do ok, some fall a bit behind some move a bit ahead. The kids who are ahead continue to be ahead because their parents are doing things at home or putting the kid in educational enrichment outside of school.

The current system doesn’t work. It doesn’t work for the kids behind or the kids who are ahead. But keep talking about removing crates so the kids without crates can see and pretending like the current “solution” is working.

I hate to say this, but the key to avoiding this situation is to buy a house zoned for an ES with very little SES diversity. There are a few. My kids go to an AAP center school with little diversity. One is in 4th grade Gen Ed, the other too young for AAP. I strongly suspect that the 4th grade Gen Ed classes are grouped by ability, for multiple reasons. Because there is little diversity in the first place, there are no bad optics created by doing this. The demographic makeup is similar across the classes.

Plenty of people in our ES have the money for private school. We are relatively poor compared to the other neighborhoods that feed into it. Some people do opt for private from middle school onward. I didn't fully grasp this what made our school "good" when we moved in with a baby and a preschooler, and just went by word of mouth. But I am realizing that most people probably like our ES because it is immune to some of the issues people are complaining about here.

[Anonymous]

DC is strong in reading, but in math not so much. Accelerated reading, writing, grammar, and spelling would be good, but accelerated math not so much,

Does the school administration really not understand that different kids always will have differing abilities & differing potentials ?

Why can’t they meet each child where he or she is ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC is strong in reading, but in math not so much. Accelerated reading, writing, grammar, and spelling would be good, but accelerated math not so much,

Does the school administration really not understand that different kids always will have differing abilities & differing potentials ?

Why can’t they meet each child where he or she is ?

Because equity.

I think each kid should be allowed to teach their full potential even if that means some kids are far ahead and some are far behind