Catholic schools rigor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just like every other school system, Catholic schools bill vary in rigor and by every other measure. That said, the idea that Religion Classes, attendance at Mass and other Catholic-centric aspects of the program might somehow detract from the overall academic rigor of the program in Catholic schools is laughable, preposterous, silly. ALL school programs dedicate a significant amount of time to non-substantive activities; they simply differ in their points of view and what they choose to emphasize.

Religion classes are not "non-substantive." Even if you are not Catholic, you learn something which involves a historical aspect along with morality and spirituality. These classes usually require a lot of reading and writing, which is not a bad thing.

Compare that to what public schools are teaching in their woke curriculum with things like gender, sexuality, and anti racism. All stuff that is very left on the political spectrum and likely not something many parents want their kids exposed to. I will take the religion over the gender studies any day of the week, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like every other school system, Catholic schools bill vary in rigor and by every other measure. That said, the idea that Religion Classes, attendance at Mass and other Catholic-centric aspects of the program might somehow detract from the overall academic rigor of the program in Catholic schools is laughable, preposterous, silly. ALL school programs dedicate a significant amount of time to non-substantive activities; they simply differ in their points of view and what they choose to emphasize.

Religion classes are not "non-substantive." Even if you are not Catholic, you learn something which involves a historical aspect along with morality and spirituality. These classes usually require a lot of reading and writing, which is not a bad thing.

Compare that to what public schools are teaching in their woke curriculum with things like gender, sexuality, and anti racism. All stuff that is very left on the political spectrum and likely not something many parents want their kids exposed to. I will take the religion over the gender studies any day of the week, thank you.

No dispute with you. The OP assumes religious activities are non-substantive, and the point is that even if this is true (which you adroitly refute), the time spent on such activities does not undermine rigor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish there were a school that, like, just did academics and spared me all the other crap.

Buena suerte finding that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Private is better than Public. Catholic or not.

That’s really a stupid uninformed statement. The top public schools send more students to the top universities than most private schools. These public schools are only admit the top students and they actually have the best and brightest. Stuyvesant High NY , Bronx High Science NY, Hunter School Science NY, Boston Latin plus all the other exam schools across the US.

Also some of the wealthiest towns have top public schools that send their students to top colleges well prepared. And then you have the for profit private schools that are terrible.

It’s no longer private school is always better than public school. The exam high schools, especially sciences ones around the country are where the brightest kids end up. The well known NYC and New England old private schools are still on top. And the public schools still have problems with equity.

Listen to what teachers are saying about public schools. This is a recent post in the MCPS forum about a recent reddit post by an MCPS teacher. Very eye opening and all other teachers agree with this teacher. Others from other school systems say it is country wide. Private schools do not have these problems.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/15/1166010.page

The Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MontgomeryCountyMD/comments/17ma4r1/how_mcps_is_ruining_education_for_students/

It’s hard to believe how much leadership has changed our schools. It’s still a great system for high achieving students, with incredible opportunities and rigorous programs. But this is available if you’re a student with a family and peer group that knows the benefit of education or someone that holds the student accountable. It’s been a slow creep, but now it has come to a point where our most needy kids are no longer being educated. Our leadership cares about the metrics by which they themselves are evaluated, they do not care about education.

When MCPS needed to meet the metric of increasing enrollment in honors classes, schools moved up all classes to honors classes. This hurt learning as many students wishing a faster paced honors course had to slow down and those needing a slower pace had trouble keeping up. It did, however, drastically improve the metric of increasing enrollment in honors courses.

Graduation rate then became the metric. So, MCPS did away with attendance requirements. I’m not kidding: a student does not have to attend class. They can skip classes and hang out in the hall without consequence. Since students no longer could lose credit for absences, the halls of many schools are full. Sometimes the laughing and yelling in the halls is so loud it becomes difficult for students inside the classroom to concentrate and for teachers to present the lesson. Graduation rates have improved drastically, while education has not.

When I started teaching a couple decades ago, students ran to class to get there on time. Now the lesson is that timeliness and attendance isn’t important. And there isn’t anything a teacher can do. If I tried to get a student in the hall to return to class, they could tell me to go to hell and then keep walking. Maybe I figure out who they are by going to security and looking at the cameras. Then we can do a restorative justice circle to find out what is motivating the child to tell me off, but if there are dozens of kids in every hallway? I could spend every moment getting kids to go to the class and it would make no difference.

The state then got on MCPS for these attendance issues. To increase attendance rates, teachers now have to mark a student tardy instead of absent if they walk into the classroom at any point. One minute before the conclusion of class is only a tardy, and therefore doesn’t count against MCPS attendance rates. This has improved the metric of attendance rates.

Since students didn’t have to attend, those that skip don’t learn the material. That presented another “obstacle” that could lead to decreased graduation rates. This led MCPS to the “50% rule”. Even if a student doesn’t turn in work, that’s the floor. But wait, in the MCPS policy it says teachers can give zeros. True, but how it works is that teachers may give zeros, however they must have “documented two way communication with parents” on multiple instances where a teacher informs them of the zero. This is for every assignment. That’s impossible in terms of time.

But even more insidious, if a parent doesn’t answer the phone or respond to the email, the student can’t be given a zero because “two way communication” hasn’t been established. Obvious consequence: parents stop communicating. We can’t get emails or phone calls answered. This valuable tool to enlist parents to help students is eliminated in the name increase passing and graduation rates. And since they get 50% even with nothing turned in, a single big assignment can allow them to pass a course. One assignment. No attendance. Passing.

Honestly the problems they will face after graduation won’t just be because we are facilitating these kids remaining uneducated. These students will have also learned the behaviors allowed in our schools are fine in the working world. They’re learning it’s ok to skip work or come in late. They’re learning it’s ok do just a tiny bit of what is required. It’s ok to tell your boss to go to hell. Spoiler alert: it isn’t ok.

MCPS has recently celebrated the drastic increases in graduation rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Private is better than Public. Catholic or not.

no way, not *any*, not those evangelical ones that teach creationism

And here she is…creationism lady! I should have known you’d make an appearance here!

? first time I have posted that ^, and I say this as a church goer. I would never send my kids to those crazy religious schools. The ^^PP stated "Any Private is better than Public. Catholic or not". No, not "any private" is better than public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any Private is better than Public. Catholic or not.

That’s really a stupid uninformed statement. The top public schools send more students to the top universities than most private schools. These public schools are only admit the top students and they actually have the best and brightest. Stuyvesant High NY , Bronx High Science NY, Hunter School Science NY, Boston Latin plus all the other exam schools across the US.

Also some of the wealthiest towns have top public schools that send their students to top colleges well prepared. And then you have the for profit private schools that are terrible.

It’s no longer private school is always better than public school. The exam high schools, especially sciences ones around the country are where the brightest kids end up. The well known NYC and New England old private schools are still on top. And the public schools still have problems with equity.

Listen to what teachers are saying about public schools. This is a recent post in the MCPS forum about a recent reddit post by an MCPS teacher. Very eye opening and all other teachers agree with this teacher. Others from other school systems say it is country wide. Private schools do not have these problems.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/15/1166010.page

The Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MontgomeryCountyMD/comments/17ma4r1/how_mcps_is_ruining_education_for_students/

It’s hard to believe how much leadership has changed our schools. It’s still a great system for high achieving students, with incredible opportunities and rigorous programs. But this is available if you’re a student with a family and peer group that knows the benefit of education or someone that holds the student accountable. It’s been a slow creep, but now it has come to a point where our most needy kids are no longer being educated. Our leadership cares about the metrics by which they themselves are evaluated, they do not care about education.

When MCPS needed to meet the metric of increasing enrollment in honors classes, schools moved up all classes to honors classes. This hurt learning as many students wishing a faster paced honors course had to slow down and those needing a slower pace had trouble keeping up. It did, however, drastically improve the metric of increasing enrollment in honors courses.

Graduation rate then became the metric. So, MCPS did away with attendance requirements. I’m not kidding: a student does not have to attend class. They can skip classes and hang out in the hall without consequence. Since students no longer could lose credit for absences, the halls of many schools are full. Sometimes the laughing and yelling in the halls is so loud it becomes difficult for students inside the classroom to concentrate and for teachers to present the lesson. Graduation rates have improved drastically, while education has not.

When I started teaching a couple decades ago, students ran to class to get there on time. Now the lesson is that timeliness and attendance isn’t important. And there isn’t anything a teacher can do. If I tried to get a student in the hall to return to class, they could tell me to go to hell and then keep walking. Maybe I figure out who they are by going to security and looking at the cameras. Then we can do a restorative justice circle to find out what is motivating the child to tell me off, but if there are dozens of kids in every hallway? I could spend every moment getting kids to go to the class and it would make no difference.

The state then got on MCPS for these attendance issues. To increase attendance rates, teachers now have to mark a student tardy instead of absent if they walk into the classroom at any point. One minute before the conclusion of class is only a tardy, and therefore doesn’t count against MCPS attendance rates. This has improved the metric of attendance rates.

Since students didn’t have to attend, those that skip don’t learn the material. That presented another “obstacle” that could lead to decreased graduation rates. This led MCPS to the “50% rule”. Even if a student doesn’t turn in work, that’s the floor. But wait, in the MCPS policy it says teachers can give zeros. True, but how it works is that teachers may give zeros, however they must have “documented two way communication with parents” on multiple instances where a teacher informs them of the zero. This is for every assignment. That’s impossible in terms of time.

But even more insidious, if a parent doesn’t answer the phone or respond to the email, the student can’t be given a zero because “two way communication” hasn’t been established. Obvious consequence: parents stop communicating. We can’t get emails or phone calls answered. This valuable tool to enlist parents to help students is eliminated in the name increase passing and graduation rates. And since they get 50% even with nothing turned in, a single big assignment can allow them to pass a course. One assignment. No attendance. Passing.

Honestly the problems they will face after graduation won’t just be because we are facilitating these kids remaining uneducated. These students will have also learned the behaviors allowed in our schools are fine in the working world. They’re learning it’s ok to skip work or come in late. They’re learning it’s ok do just a tiny bit of what is required. It’s ok to tell your boss to go to hell. Spoiler alert: it isn’t ok.

MCPS has recently celebrated the drastic increases in graduation rates.

The PP is responding to the statement that any private is better than any public. That statement had no qualifiers and so is patently wrong.

[Anonymous]

Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

Well, you’re honest. Most private school parents would never admit how much they dislike the poor and immigrants. At least Catholic schools have stuck to the part of their mission to educate a wide variety of kids, including the poor, immigrants, different learners, different races.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

Well, you’re honest. Most private school parents would never admit how much they dislike the poor and immigrants. At least Catholic schools have stuck to the part of their mission to educate a wide variety of kids, including the poor, immigrants, different learners, different races.

It's not about socioeconomic status, race, or disabilities. Plenty of diversity in our Catholic school, and my daughter has severe ADHD and gets a slew of accommodations. It's about coming from families that value education and keep their kids accountable. That's who I want to surround my kids with. Unfortunately because public schools have to take everyone, you are going to be exposed to the slackers. Some kids come out just fine regardless, but I want to stack the deck so that my kid will succeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

Well, you’re honest. Most private school parents would never admit how much they dislike the poor and immigrants. At least Catholic schools have stuck to the part of their mission to educate a wide variety of kids, including the poor, immigrants, different learners, different races.

It's not about socioeconomic status, race, or disabilities. Plenty of diversity in our Catholic school, and my daughter has severe ADHD and gets a slew of accommodations. It's about coming from families that value education and keep their kids accountable. That's who I want to surround my kids with. Unfortunately because public schools have to take everyone, you are going to be exposed to the slackers. Some kids come out just fine regardless, but I want to stack the deck so that my kid will succeed.

So the PP (you?) should have said slackers rather than “kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.”. You do your Catholic school no favors by saying the school would turn away different learners, immigrants and the poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

Well, you’re honest. Most private school parents would never admit how much they dislike the poor and immigrants. At least Catholic schools have stuck to the part of their mission to educate a wide variety of kids, including the poor, immigrants, different learners, different races.

It's not about socioeconomic status, race, or disabilities. Plenty of diversity in our Catholic school, and my daughter has severe ADHD and gets a slew of accommodations. It's about coming from families that value education and keep their kids accountable. That's who I want to surround my kids with. Unfortunately because public schools have to take everyone, you are going to be exposed to the slackers. Some kids come out just fine regardless, but I want to stack the deck so that my kid will succeed.

So the PP (you?) should have said slackers rather than “kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.”. You do your Catholic school no favors by saying the school would turn away different learners, immigrants and the poor.

Where did I say this? I said our school generally doesn't have students with parents who don't keep their kids accountable. There are plenty of students on financial aid and who are different learners in our student body as well as great ethnic and racial diversity. Difference is the families value education and engage with the school community. That is what we pay for.

Reference to "slackers" are the kids who come from families who just don't care and don't engage. We prefer to surround ourselves with other families to value good education and hard work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what “rigor” is? Not taking TWO YEARS off for a respiratory virus, like publics did. Catholics were smart enough not to fall for that insanity.

I hear this so much at our Catholic. Said with a little smile. No humility. So disappointing.

I am sure a lot of Catholic school parents pat themselves on the back for making the choice to send their kids to Catholic during covid. Sure, no one could have predicted covid and the response from public schools....but Catholic school culture teaches independence and critical thinking, so its no surprise they handled covid differently and correctly.

Consider also the criticism Catholic school parents face...my neighbors are annoyed we dont use the walkable neighborhood elementary...my close friends who work in public schools were horrified I am sending my kids to Catholic (underresourced, fewer support services etc etc etc)....and then there are the people like OP.

So yeah, if they crack a little smile when covid is mentioned, they deserve to give themselves a pat on the back for making the choice that was best for their families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools don't have the same issues as public schools because they can turn away anyone they want to: troublemakers, kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Yes, and that's a good thing. I'll take the apples over the oranges any day!

Well, you’re honest. Most private school parents would never admit how much they dislike the poor and immigrants. At least Catholic schools have stuck to the part of their mission to educate a wide variety of kids, including the poor, immigrants, different learners, different races.

It's not about socioeconomic status, race, or disabilities. Plenty of diversity in our Catholic school, and my daughter has severe ADHD and gets a slew of accommodations. It's about coming from families that value education and keep their kids accountable. That's who I want to surround my kids with. Unfortunately because public schools have to take everyone, you are going to be exposed to the slackers. Some kids come out just fine regardless, but I want to stack the deck so that my kid will succeed.

So the PP (you?) should have said slackers rather than “kids who are very low achieving, FARMs kids, ESOL kids... etc.”. You do your Catholic school no favors by saying the school would turn away different learners, immigrants and the poor.

Where did I say this? I said our school generally doesn't have students with parents who don't keep their kids accountable. There are plenty of students on financial aid and who are different learners in our student body as well as great ethnic and racial diversity. Difference is the families value education and engage with the school community. That is what we pay for.

Reference to "slackers" are the kids who come from families who just don't care and don't engage. We prefer to surround ourselves with other families to value good education and hard work.

I think that's a valid point, but then you really cannot compare privates to publics simply because of this reason. The student body is different; the parents are different.

However, even in publics, the schools that have most families who do care about academics are decent. Not perfect, but decent enough where many kids end up at colleges, and some at very very good colleges to rival privates.

I'm the ^^PP who mentioned the different study body. I stated earlier: I went to a rough school, but in the upper grades, I took mostly AP and real honors classes. The kids in those classes care about education. Same for the publics today. The kids who take the AP classes are not slackers. They care about education, as do their parents. Kids who are on the most advanced track become a school within a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what “rigor” is? Not taking TWO YEARS off for a respiratory virus, like publics did. Catholics were smart enough not to fall for that insanity.

I hear this so much at our Catholic. Said with a little smile. No humility. So disappointing.

I am sure a lot of Catholic school parents pat themselves on the back for making the choice to send their kids to Catholic during covid. Sure, no one could have predicted covid and the response from public schools....but Catholic school culture teaches independence and critical thinking, so its no surprise they handled covid differently and correctly.

Consider also the criticism Catholic school parents face...my neighbors are annoyed we dont use the walkable neighborhood elementary...my close friends who work in public schools were horrified I am sending my kids to Catholic (underresourced, fewer support services etc etc etc)....and then there are the people like OP.

So yeah, if they crack a little smile when covid is mentioned, they deserve to give themselves a pat on the back for making the choice that was best for their families.

How do catholic schools teach independent thinking and critical thinking skills, whereas, you assume that publics don't? Public schools went over board on the "critical thinking" by pushing "explain your thinking" in every subject, even math. There was a big push a few years ago with common core to push for more critical thinking analysis in public schools.