Why apply to an Oberlin/Kenyon/Grinnell

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

With TO and grade inflation this will be much less noticeable. Trinity is already at 11% submitted SAT scores.

But actually, that number is precisely what I noticed and led me to site it as an example. It’s a really disturbing thing to see as a parent and a metric that is way lower than peer schools. You can run but you can’t hide.

That’s interesting. We’ve been tracking % submitting scores/and score range for a handful of merit LACs. It’s a little tricky
bc surely some kids submit both ACT and SAT (not sure how much overlap?).

But if you add together % submitting SAT and % submitting ACT, then look at the 25-75 percentile range:

Trinity College 19%, 1320-1460 (50th=1380)

Lawrence U. 59%, 1210-1460
(50th=1340)

Wooster, 56%, 1250-1450
(Didn’t report 50th)

Grinnell 55%, 1410-1520
(50th = 1460)

Kenyon 55%, 1370-1520
(50th = 1440)

St. Olaf, 52%, 1300-1480
(50th = 1370)

So Grinnell and Kenyon definitely seem to attract stronger students. On the surface there would appear to be a wider range of scores at some of the other midwestern merit schools, but given that those applicants submit scores at 2.5 - 3x the rate as Trinity, I’m not sure that’s true. For 50th %ile, Lawrence and St. Olaf are nipping at Trinity’s heels with a lot more kids submitting.

I don't like judging which place attracts stronger students just based on SAT.
GPA would be more indicative, but many times the CDS only gives it as top tenth top quarter top half etc.
Percent of admitted freshmen in top tenth of high school graduating class:

Denison: 72%
Grinnell: 66%
Kenyon: 63%
Oberlin: 54%
Wooster: 46%
Trinity: 40%
Lawrence: 37%
St Olaf: 39%

Possible, of course, that more Trinity students are coming from "more difficult" private schools but still looks like Trinity is well below many other LACs in terms of attracting strong students.

PP. Fair point, and I appreciate the pushback on assumptions. This is another good way to parse the data for sure. Thanks for the additional perspective!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

So what is your plan, then? Community college? Attend a commuter school and live at home?

You are going to pay a minimum of $40k per year per kid even for the most affordable option that's even remotely attractive. $50 to $60k per year is just a matter of planning.

In-state public schools or private with merit aid.

Of course it's about planning. No one suggested otherwise.

Privates with merit, even the ones that are known for generous merit, will still cost well over $30 per year.

UVA is $38k for the college of arts and sciences. Same with VT.

Yes. And?

We plan for this. It's a far cry from $85K/year and rising.

And… your kid goes to an in state public instead of a “prestigious” northeastern LAC.

And… you’re still going to cry about the unfairness of it all.

Again: No one is crying or for that matter, whining. No one.

Many posts in here "we can't afford $85k" = crying and whining.

Fascinating that you read it that way! I’m always so interested in what emotions and tone people ascribe to others’ comments.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

So what is your plan, then? Community college? Attend a commuter school and live at home?

You are going to pay a minimum of $40k per year per kid even for the most affordable option that's even remotely attractive. $50 to $60k per year is just a matter of planning.

In-state public schools or private with merit aid.

Of course it's about planning. No one suggested otherwise.

Privates with merit, even the ones that are known for generous merit, will still cost well over $30 per year.

UVA is $38k for the college of arts and sciences. Same with VT.

Yes. And?

We plan for this. It's a far cry from $85K/year and rising.

And… your kid goes to an in state public instead of a “prestigious” northeastern LAC.

And… you’re still going to cry about the unfairness of it all.

Again: No one is crying or for that matter, whining. No one.

Then what is going on here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

So what is your plan, then? Community college? Attend a commuter school and live at home?

You are going to pay a minimum of $40k per year per kid even for the most affordable option that's even remotely attractive. $50 to $60k per year is just a matter of planning.

In-state public schools or private with merit aid.

Of course it's about planning. No one suggested otherwise.

Privates with merit, even the ones that are known for generous merit, will still cost well over $30 per year.

UVA is $38k for the college of arts and sciences. Same with VT.

Yes. And?

We plan for this. It's a far cry from $85K/year and rising.

And… your kid goes to an in state public instead of a “prestigious” northeastern LAC.

And… you’re still going to cry about the unfairness of it all.

Again: No one is crying or for that matter, whining. No one.

Then what is going on here?

I’m not one of the PPs who shared financial/NPC info, or what we can afford, but I did read those posts. I saw them as a clear and specific answer to the OP’s question. Which was…why apply to these midwestern merit schools.

[Anonymous]

With a number of posters pointing out that they can’t afford NE LACs but don’t like the Midwest LACs offering merit.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

With TO and grade inflation this will be much less noticeable. Trinity is already at 11% submitted SAT scores.

But actually, that number is precisely what I noticed and led me to site it as an example. It’s a really disturbing thing to see as a parent and a metric that is way lower than peer schools. You can run but you can’t hide.

That’s interesting. We’ve been tracking % submitting scores/and score range for a handful of merit LACs. It’s a little tricky
bc surely some kids submit both ACT and SAT (not sure how much overlap?).

But if you add together % submitting SAT and % submitting ACT, then look at the 25-75 percentile range:

Trinity College 19%, 1320-1460 (50th=1380)

Lawrence U. 59%, 1210-1460
(50th=1340)

Wooster, 56%, 1250-1450
(Didn’t report 50th)

Grinnell 55%, 1410-1520
(50th = 1460)

Kenyon 55%, 1370-1520
(50th = 1440)

St. Olaf, 52%, 1300-1480
(50th = 1370)

So Grinnell and Kenyon definitely seem to attract stronger students. On the surface there would appear to be a wider range of scores at some of the other midwestern merit schools, but given that those applicants submit scores at 2.5 - 3x the rate as Trinity, I’m not sure that’s true. For 50th %ile, Lawrence and St. Olaf are nipping at Trinity’s heels with a lot more kids submitting.

I don't like judging which place attracts stronger students just based on SAT.
GPA would be more indicative, but many times the CDS only gives it as top tenth top quarter top half etc.
Percent of admitted freshmen in top tenth of high school graduating class:

Denison: 72%
Grinnell: 66%
Kenyon: 63%
Oberlin: 54%
Wooster: 46%
Trinity: 40%
Lawrence: 37%
St Olaf: 39%

Possible, of course, that more Trinity students are coming from "more difficult" private schools but still looks like Trinity is well below many other LACs in terms of attracting strong students.

GPA varies a great deal from one school versus another, as we all know. Denison is not enrolling stronger academic performers vs Grinnell. It’s just not. The test score data is the most reliable indicator and I think aligns with more subjective perceptions about the schools in question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

Sorry, but I just don't feel it. There are lots of smart kids out there who are not full pay. They go to their in-state flagship or a lower ranked LAC with generous merit. Much better to apply to law/med school when you are a big fish in a small pond. The admission committees at these schools are not wringing their hands on "quality slips" applicants, but taking the cream across many schools.

I don’t know that we are disagreeing. The second and third tier schools that don’t offer merit aid are not going to get the better students from 150k plus households. Why would you pay full freight for Trinity if you could get $30k merit somewhere equivalent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

Sorry, but I just don't feel it. There are lots of smart kids out there who are not full pay. They go to their in-state flagship or a lower ranked LAC with generous merit. Much better to apply to law/med school when you are a big fish in a small pond. The admission committees at these schools are not wringing their hands on "quality slips" applicants, but taking the cream across many schools.

I don’t know that we are disagreeing. The second and third tier schools that don’t offer merit aid are not going to get the better students from 150k plus households. Why would you pay full freight for Trinity if you could get $30k merit somewhere equivalent?

Agree. There are some core Midwestern LACs offering merit as has been covered in this thread. My takeaway from here, however, is that a group of folks, some who identify themselves as "donut hole" families, they don't want these LACs. They want merit from NESCACs, etc. and they are not happy that these schools solely award money based on need. And they are not happy that middle class families are being shut out (though my guess these HHIs do not track with the USG definition of a middle class family).

Until colleges became more mindful of COA, poor and working families were shut out of them for decades - both private and public. A more robust aid system would be great, but the donut hole families definitely have more options than poor and working families did historically. Maybe not NESCACs, but not nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

Sorry, but I just don't feel it. There are lots of smart kids out there who are not full pay. They go to their in-state flagship or a lower ranked LAC with generous merit. Much better to apply to law/med school when you are a big fish in a small pond. The admission committees at these schools are not wringing their hands on "quality slips" applicants, but taking the cream across many schools.

I don’t know that we are disagreeing. The second and third tier schools that don’t offer merit aid are not going to get the better students from 150k plus households. Why would you pay full freight for Trinity if you could get $30k merit somewhere equivalent?

Agree. There are some core Midwestern LACs offering merit as has been covered in this thread. My takeaway from here, however, is that a group of folks, some who identify themselves as "donut hole" families, they don't want these LACs. They want merit from NESCACs, etc. and they are not happy that these schools solely award money based on need. And they are not happy that middle class families are being shut out (though my guess these HHIs do not track with the USG definition of a middle class family).

Until colleges became more mindful of COA, poor and working families were shut out of them for decades - both private and public. A more robust aid system would be great, but the donut hole families definitely have more options than poor and working families did historically. Maybe not NESCACs, but not nothing.

I won't speak for all the posters here, but I've commented in this thread, and for the record, I am absolutely delighted by these merit schools. I love the pressure they've taken off the admissions process. I love the relaxed vibe of our visits. I love the midwestern friendly. I love that my kid goes to these campuses and already feels successful and wanted. And I love that some of them will be options for less than the cost of our public flagship. I truly haven't seen whining in this thread, it's actually hard for me to fully understand what the PP sees, but maybe that's bc I'm reading the posts through my own eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: :cry:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

With TO and grade inflation this will be much less noticeable. Trinity is already at 11% submitted SAT scores.

But actually, that number is precisely what I noticed and led me to site it as an example. It’s a really disturbing thing to see as a parent and a metric that is way lower than peer schools. You can run but you can’t hide.

That’s interesting. We’ve been tracking % submitting scores/and score range for a handful of merit LACs. It’s a little tricky
bc surely some kids submit both ACT and SAT (not sure how much overlap?).

But if you add together % submitting SAT and % submitting ACT, then look at the 25-75 percentile range:

Trinity College 19%, 1320-1460 (50th=1380)

Lawrence U. 59%, 1210-1460
(50th=1340)

Wooster, 56%, 1250-1450
(Didn’t report 50th)

Grinnell 55%, 1410-1520
(50th = 1460)

Kenyon 55%, 1370-1520
(50th = 1440)

St. Olaf, 52%, 1300-1480
(50th = 1370)

So Grinnell and Kenyon definitely seem to attract stronger students. On the surface there would appear to be a wider range of scores at some of the other midwestern merit schools, but given that those applicants submit scores at 2.5 - 3x the rate as Trinity, I’m not sure that’s true. For 50th %ile, Lawrence and St. Olaf are nipping at Trinity’s heels with a lot more kids submitting.

I don't like judging which place attracts stronger students just based on SAT.
GPA would be more indicative, but many times the CDS only gives it as top tenth top quarter top half etc.
Percent of admitted freshmen in top tenth of high school graduating class:

Denison: 72%
Grinnell: 66%
Kenyon: 63%
Oberlin: 54%
Wooster: 46%
Trinity: 40%
Lawrence: 37%
St Olaf: 39%

Possible, of course, that more Trinity students are coming from "more difficult" private schools but still looks like Trinity is well below many other LACs in terms of attracting strong students.

PP. Fair point, and I appreciate the pushback on assumptions. This is another good way to parse the data for sure. Thanks for the additional perspective!

gpa is meaningless without context and same goes for where student is in percentage of their graduating class. Sat scores tell more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: :cry:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

With TO and grade inflation this will be much less noticeable. Trinity is already at 11% submitted SAT scores.

But actually, that number is precisely what I noticed and led me to site it as an example. It’s a really disturbing thing to see as a parent and a metric that is way lower than peer schools. You can run but you can’t hide.

That’s interesting. We’ve been tracking % submitting scores/and score range for a handful of merit LACs. It’s a little tricky
bc surely some kids submit both ACT and SAT (not sure how much overlap?).

But if you add together % submitting SAT and % submitting ACT, then look at the 25-75 percentile range:

Trinity College 19%, 1320-1460 (50th=1380)

Lawrence U. 59%, 1210-1460
(50th=1340)

Wooster, 56%, 1250-1450
(Didn’t report 50th)

Grinnell 55%, 1410-1520
(50th = 1460)

Kenyon 55%, 1370-1520
(50th = 1440)

St. Olaf, 52%, 1300-1480
(50th = 1370)

So Grinnell and Kenyon definitely seem to attract stronger students. On the surface there would appear to be a wider range of scores at some of the other midwestern merit schools, but given that those applicants submit scores at 2.5 - 3x the rate as Trinity, I’m not sure that’s true. For 50th %ile, Lawrence and St. Olaf are nipping at Trinity’s heels with a lot more kids submitting.

I don't like judging which place attracts stronger students just based on SAT.
GPA would be more indicative, but many times the CDS only gives it as top tenth top quarter top half etc.
Percent of admitted freshmen in top tenth of high school graduating class:

Denison: 72%
Grinnell: 66%
Kenyon: 63%
Oberlin: 54%
Wooster: 46%
Trinity: 40%
Lawrence: 37%
St Olaf: 39%

Possible, of course, that more Trinity students are coming from "more difficult" private schools but still looks like Trinity is well below many other LACs in terms of attracting strong students.

PP. Fair point, and I appreciate the pushback on assumptions. This is another good way to parse the data for sure. Thanks for the additional perspective!

gpa is meaningless without context and same goes for where student is in percentage of their graduating class. Sat scores tell more.

Disagree, especially with TO. Even without TO the SAT tells you who is smart on the day of the test, it doesn't tell you who is a strong student. Plenty of kids with high SAT who are lazy, plenty of kids with low SAT who work hard for good grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

With TO and grade inflation this will be much less noticeable. Trinity is already at 11% submitted SAT scores.

But actually, that number is precisely what I noticed and led me to site it as an example. It’s a really disturbing thing to see as a parent and a metric that is way lower than peer schools. You can run but you can’t hide.

That’s interesting. We’ve been tracking % submitting scores/and score range for a handful of merit LACs. It’s a little tricky
bc surely some kids submit both ACT and SAT (not sure how much overlap?).

But if you add together % submitting SAT and % submitting ACT, then look at the 25-75 percentile range:

Trinity College 19%, 1320-1460 (50th=1380)

Lawrence U. 59%, 1210-1460
(50th=1340)

Wooster, 56%, 1250-1450
(Didn’t report 50th)

Grinnell 55%, 1410-1520
(50th = 1460)

Kenyon 55%, 1370-1520
(50th = 1440)

St. Olaf, 52%, 1300-1480
(50th = 1370)

So Grinnell and Kenyon definitely seem to attract stronger students. On the surface there would appear to be a wider range of scores at some of the other midwestern merit schools, but given that those applicants submit scores at 2.5 - 3x the rate as Trinity, I’m not sure that’s true. For 50th %ile, Lawrence and St. Olaf are nipping at Trinity’s heels with a lot more kids submitting.

I don't like judging which place attracts stronger students just based on SAT.
GPA would be more indicative, but many times the CDS only gives it as top tenth top quarter top half etc.
Percent of admitted freshmen in top tenth of high school graduating class:

Denison: 72%
Grinnell: 66%
Kenyon: 63%
Oberlin: 54%
Wooster: 46%
Trinity: 40%
Lawrence: 37%
St Olaf: 39%

Possible, of course, that more Trinity students are coming from "more difficult" private schools but still looks like Trinity is well below many other LACs in terms of attracting strong students.

GPA varies a great deal from one school versus another, as we all know. Denison is not enrolling stronger academic performers vs Grinnell. It’s just not. The test score data is the most reliable indicator and I think aligns with more subjective perceptions about the schools in question.

The whole reason colleges are going TO or test blind is they don't believe tests are a reliable indicator of past or future academic success.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

So what is your plan, then? Community college? Attend a commuter school and live at home?

You are going to pay a minimum of $40k per year per kid even for the most affordable option that's even remotely attractive. $50 to $60k per year is just a matter of planning.

In-state public schools or private with merit aid.

Of course it's about planning. No one suggested otherwise.

Privates with merit, even the ones that are known for generous merit, will still cost well over $30 per year.

UVA is $38k for the college of arts and sciences. Same with VT.

Yes. And?

We plan for this. It's a far cry from $85K/year and rising.

And… your kid goes to an in state public instead of a “prestigious” northeastern LAC.

And… you’re still going to cry about the unfairness of it all.

Again: No one is crying or for that matter, whining. No one.

Then what is going on here?

I’m not one of the PPs who shared financial/NPC info, or what we can afford, but I did read those posts. I saw them as a clear and specific answer to the OP’s question. Which was…why apply to these midwestern merit schools.

+1

Question asked, question answered. Anecdotal information supplied.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate at Colby and Bowdoin - 9%
Acceptance rate at Hamilton - 14%
Acceptance rate at Bates - 17%

Acceptance rate at Kenyon and Oberlin - 35%
Acceptance rate at Grinnell 11% but fewer east coast applicants than the ones you asked about.

This may be part of your answer.

Colby and Bowdoin - no merit aid
Hamilton - no merit aid
Bates - no merit aid

Kenyon and Oberlin - merit aid available
Grinnell - merit aid available

There you have your answer.

Colby may not give merit aid but they have committed to being one of the most affordable small colleges in the country. Families that make less than $150K (which is a lot outside of the DC bubble) pay no more than $15k per year and more than 70% of families receive financial aid. Plus, the facilities are extraordinary. It does have the drawback of being in the middle of nowhere.

That is irrelevant for families in the donut hole. For them, it's all about merit aid.

This seemed false and it is. 46 pct of Colby students receive need based aid in line with most of these schools. Colby’s financial aid is typical among SLACs. https://afa.colby.edu/apply/college-profile/

Looks like someone doesn’t know what the donut hole is.

Colby says: "Colby College meets 100% of demonstrated need without student loans. Families with a total income of up to $75,000 with typical assets can expect a parent or guardian contribution of $0. Families earning $65,000 to $150,000 with typical assets will have a parent or guardian contribution of $15,000 or less. In recent years, more than 95 percent of families with a total income of $200,000 or less have qualified for financial aid."

The say the annual cost is $86k and it looks like a donut hole family would end up paying $35-50k, which is not terrible considering that lots of "affordable" options are still $40k per year.

A donut hole family is a family that doesn't qualify for aid. They get zero aka a donut hole. Usually refers to a family that is just above the threshold.

A family like mine, with three kids and $225,000 in annual household income, gets zero financial aid. We cannot pay $85,000 per year, times three kids, for undergraduate education. It's not possible.

And you are the classic donut hole family. Just enough money to qualify for nothing. I do think those merit aid LACs address an important niche - kids who want to attend a LAC but whose families can’t swing it. And while Bates may in theory be slightly more prestigious than Denison, in the scheme of things they are the same. So it’s great that schools with merit aid policies are out there because not every kid wants to attend a large state school.

You're much kinder than me: there are options for donut hole families, but many just don't want to take them. They want their kids at prestigious schools and most of those only offer FA. And a subset of folks I know in that category were full pay as kids and they can't possibly accept that their kid may attend a "less prestigious" school than they did because of money. And they whine about this to folks who attended these "less prestigious" schools yet are living perfectly fine lives. The horror.

-1. My kid has ADHD and a SLAC with smaller classes was a better fit. It isn’t a prestige thing. For us, it was an academic fit thing. And we are so thankful we chased merit and make it work. The semester my kid went abroad and studied at a large uni (in English) with large classes, TAs etc, his ADHd got overwhelming, he had an enormous amount of anxiety and his grades tanked. He was lucky his college records classes from other colleges as P/F credit, and does not show the grade on the transcript. Because he struggled to pull out the C-s he needed to transfer classes back as a P.

Also, we are very lucky he got great merit to all three of the SLACs on this thread, and chose one. We still paid about 200k in tuition. Which is still tough x2 kids. Colleges with no merit aid get wealthy kids. And MC kids and below, if they’re generous with need based aid. But truly UMC kids can’t afford to attend without a lot of funding from owns, grandparents, etc. There are some articles out there about issues that arise when schools have a lot of wealthy kids. And a lot of URM/1st Gen/ Pell/ MC. But no kids with UMC parents. Having an environment of haves and have nots only isn’t great for the school.

This is one reason why the better merit aid SLACs are such strong schools. It’s a smart policy. They are attracting a segment of high performing students who are neglected by the other schools. Hard to imagine why anyone price sensitive should choose a school like Bates versus a large discount at one of these schools. As tuition goes up and up, offering merit aid will become an even more valuable strategic advantage. The New England SLACs want to emulate the Ivy League in not offering merit but it may be unsustainable for many of them

A policy of mostly full pay kids plus some “need based” URMs (and maybe athletes) is totally sustainable for small SLACs. It just means middle class kids get shut out. They’re already heading in that direction.

For the very top ones but schools like Trinity have issues - you end up accepting and all full pay kids with half decent records. Quality slips and it becomes a vicious cycle. You end up with rich dummies + diversity.

Sorry, but I just don't feel it. There are lots of smart kids out there who are not full pay. They go to their in-state flagship or a lower ranked LAC with generous merit. Much better to apply to law/med school when you are a big fish in a small pond. The admission committees at these schools are not wringing their hands on "quality slips" applicants, but taking the cream across many schools.

I don’t know that we are disagreeing. The second and third tier schools that don’t offer merit aid are not going to get the better students from 150k plus households. Why would you pay full freight for Trinity if you could get $30k merit somewhere equivalent?

Agree. There are some core Midwestern LACs offering merit as has been covered in this thread. My takeaway from here, however, is that a group of folks, some who identify themselves as "donut hole" families, they don't want these LACs. They want merit from NESCACs, etc. and they are not happy that these schools solely award money based on need. And they are not happy that middle class families are being shut out (though my guess these HHIs do not track with the USG definition of a middle class family).

Until colleges became more mindful of COA, poor and working families were shut out of them for decades - both private and public. A more robust aid system would be great, but the donut hole families definitely have more options than poor and working families did historically. Maybe not NESCACs, but not nothing.

How on earth is this your takeaway?!

[Anonymous]

lol please don’t tell me there’s a poster who seriously believes that Denison is attracting and enrolling stronger students than Grinnell. What a joke.

Grinnell is more than a “Midwest merit” liberal arts colleges. It is generally regarded by academics as a true peer of the very best liberal arts colleges in the entire country, including the best in the NE. Denison doesn’t even come close.