All these smart kids are getting rejected across the board

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

Totally agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a very different world than it was for us in the 1980s and 1990s.

Ranking is now seen as prestige, and people have been fooled into thinking that a low acceptance rate means a good school. As a result, the schools are working to pump up their applications with a goal to simply rejecting more kids, because it makes their rate go down. Presto: "prestige".

Add the basic demographics of a lot more kids. Then throw in the desire for schools to build brand (which also drives up applications) by signaling that they are at the forefront of social engineering and fixing the wrongs of the past, and URMs get prioritized, as do kids from places with few students. It means a non-URM kid from the DMV is second or third in line, and in some cases allegedly means that Asian kids are at an even greater disadvantage.

Note that the above has F$$^# all to do with the quality of education. So if you build a good list with your kid based on the actual education likely received, it'll be just fine.

we jokingly say that we should've moved to podunk some state rather than DC area because of how competitive this area is for top tier college admissions.

My junior is in a magnet, straight As, 1590 SAT, good e.c. But, we will be happy if DC gets into our local state univ which has a fantastic program in their chosen major. DC will still apply to the "top tier" but also to the state school as a safety, but even that is no longer a shoo in.

Even if DC ends up in the state school, IMO, the hard work DC put in in HS is not for nothing because 1. the state school is competitve for that given major 2. DC will have a leg up going into college with all those AP credits, and already used to college level work. College should be a cake walk after the rigorous HS experience.

Neither my spouse nor I have any legacy connections. We are the first in our family to go to college, and a B/C rated on at that. But, because DC is not URM, and we are not low income, that's a strike against DC.

I feel the same. My senior did get into some Ivy/top 10, but we were fully prepared to make the most of all the benefits of state flagship or the safety or target LACs. She had a good range of schools -- some CSS (we'd qualify for FA), some non (looking for merit) and in state. That made for a very good palate to assess not only admissions but also affordability. Worked out great for her in the end, but would also have worked out w/ the top tier admissions.

Sounds like you have a very healthy approach! I will pass on something I think helped mine. Do the research into why X school and make all of that specific. Show schools some big love (w/o getting too attached). In this climate of skyrocketing apps, they know that some kids will get multiple acceptances, and they will want the ones they think will accept them back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No one ever seems to blame legacies, children of people with connections (if you think this doesn’t happen often, think again), and kids who represent geographical diversity). The previous poster almost makes it sounds like a full-pay family has more of a right to a spot than those who can’t pay in full and may need loans and/or merit scholarships.

Yes, my DD was accepted to Dartmouth, and there was very little diversity on campus, but lots of legacy and private school connections in the admitted students group.

[Anonymous]

My kid is an upper middle class, straight white male. He had strong but not perfect grades, high test scores, and good extra-curriculars but nothing earth shaking. He applied to Stanford, Michigan, Purdue, Indiana, Ohio State, and Michigan State. Stanford and Michigan passed on him, the others accepted him.

These results seemed perfectly reasonable to me, so I'm on the other side of application season thinking that all the fretting about admission standards was a little overblown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A typical scenario:
- I have 4.5 GPAs and 10 AP courses:  there are ten thousands Asian kids with the same stat, you are not special,
- I have 1550+ on the SAT:  there are ten thousands Asian kids with the same stat, you are not special
- I play level 10 piano and first chair in violin:  there are thousands Asian kidsthat you do, you are not special
- I play high school sport and am a member of the varsity team:  there are thousands Asian kids that do what you do, you are not special
- I volunteer after school:  there are thousands Asian kids that do what you do, you are not special

- I am a rapper, tiktok and a youtube star with millions of followers:  Now you're different from other Asian kids.    Ivies will admit you.

so the Asians that made up 28% of this year's class at Harvard are all in your last bucket?

Many are wealthy legacies from abroad.

'

i'm sure you think all Asian people come from abroad, but look around, we live here and many of us were born here.

You shouldn’t make assumptions about me, unni

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think I was just also know that private schools inflate grades

And some deflate them. My kid got the highest grade in a notoriously difficult 9th grade class with an infamously difficult teacher. We moved here and that no longer mattered. He was compared to kids who were allowed to retest.

What's wrong w/ that? Doing well on a one-off doesn't predict college success. Leave the sour grapes and just do your own thang.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

I'll start by saying I don't have a problem with what's going on currently in admissions.

I agree with you that everyone is too focuses on the same set of colleges. BUT, I do think that with COVID, test optional, and recent cultural changes that some schools have truly expanded their horizons on how they evaluate candidates. I think in the past that they were more skewed towards test scores aligning with grades and adding in some ECs. Now without test scores, I think they are genuinely looking at other parts of the application in a new way.. It could also be that they are simply recognizing that they have so many applicants who were "qualified" that they should really stop just skewing admissions to those with the highest GPA/test stats and put increased thought into what each applicant might bring to campus (they were doing this before but I think with a smaller pool of high stats kids).

I personally think this is a good thing and will create all kinds of diversity (including the type of white UMC kids they accept). It also means the tip top gpa/test stat kids may not have the same advantages they had before and definitely need to cast a wider net.

But to say that test optional and diversity didn't change anything isn't quite right.

I'm with you. Metrics are not the only indicator of a good student, and diversity brings educational benefits for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am hearing about these kids who have near perfect grades, super high SAT scores and strong extracurricular activities and they are getting rejected across the board. The parents are well educated professionals. The kids are getting rejected from their parents’ alma maters.

I feel like this same kids would be ivy bound 20-30 years ago.

Colleges know that A's are giving out like water in schools due to helicopter parenting. A 4.0 student is really a equal to a 3.0 gpa from 20 years ago. Super high SAT scores are made possible through the internet cheat sheets and 'prep' courses that teach to the test, so SAT is not reliable and many colleges are dropping the SAT. If you want your kids to get into a school just donate some money.

No. One of my own scored really high without attending any center or what not. We were afraid he won’t as he is not doing what everyone else is doing. Some people are naturally better test takers and if they are good students, scoring high doesn’t require external help.

So you saved yourselves the test prep $$, but admissions folks know that high scores can be coached. While these tests were supposed to level the playing field, affluent folks always find a way to maximize, of course. Same with the doctor shopping to get LD diagnoses.

Affluent folks have the privilege of networks and legacy. That doesn't seem to deter these colleges from giving them a bump for that.

So, let me see....

UMC have means to get test prep, so we shouldn't use standardized tests.
UMC have educated parents and means to help the kids get good grades, so we shouldn't focus on grades.
UMC have the means to pay for great e.c.s, so we shouldn't just look at e.c.s

But, we will look at whether your UMC parent went to college here or not and give you a bump.

Yeah legacy admissions suck. But it’s still reality. It seems like many parents are complaining that the old rules don’t apply and also that the old rules are hurting their kids. Help your kids choose a broad range of
Places to apply and manage their expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

I'll start by saying I don't have a problem with what's going on currently in admissions.

I agree with you that everyone is too focuses on the same set of colleges. BUT, I do think that with COVID, test optional, and recent cultural changes that some schools have truly expanded their horizons on how they evaluate candidates. I think in the past that they were more skewed towards test scores aligning with grades and adding in some ECs. Now without test scores, I think they are genuinely looking at other parts of the application in a new way.. It could also be that they are simply recognizing that they have so many applicants who were "qualified" that they should really stop just skewing admissions to those with the highest GPA/test stats and put increased thought into what each applicant might bring to campus (they were doing this before but I think with a smaller pool of high stats kids).

I personally think this is a good thing and will create all kinds of diversity (including the type of white UMC kids they accept). It also means the tip top gpa/test stat kids may not have the same advantages they had before and definitely need to cast a wider net.

But to say that test optional and diversity didn't change anything isn't quite right.

I think it is hard for a student who got better grades and better test scores to see a fellow classmate with worse everything gaining acceptance because they are URM. I have heard it was a really bad year for many MC and UMC white and Asian students.

But there are so few URM students on these campuses and far more legacy kids getting in over your kid. Why not be frustrated with them. BTW my MC white kid did great. Some friends did as well, some good and one OK, but considered it bad b/c she only applied to Ivy/T10 and 1 state. I hear you that disappointment is hard, but don't look at URM kids here. The ones we know have faced much greater challenges than their white and Asian friends and deserve everything they've gotten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

I'll start by saying I don't have a problem with what's going on currently in admissions.

I agree with you that everyone is too focuses on the same set of colleges. BUT, I do think that with COVID, test optional, and recent cultural changes that some schools have truly expanded their horizons on how they evaluate candidates. I think in the past that they were more skewed towards test scores aligning with grades and adding in some ECs. Now without test scores, I think they are genuinely looking at other parts of the application in a new way.. It could also be that they are simply recognizing that they have so many applicants who were "qualified" that they should really stop just skewing admissions to those with the highest GPA/test stats and put increased thought into what each applicant might bring to campus (they were doing this before but I think with a smaller pool of high stats kids).

I personally think this is a good thing and will create all kinds of diversity (including the type of white UMC kids they accept). It also means the tip top gpa/test stat kids may not have the same advantages they had before and definitely need to cast a wider net.

But to say that test optional and diversity didn't change anything isn't quite right.

I think it is hard for a student who got better grades and better test scores to see a fellow classmate with worse everything gaining acceptance because they are URM. I have heard it was a really bad year for many MC and UMC white and Asian students.

Wow! Perhaps you don't know the whole story for the URM as a whole person? Test scores and grades are not everything. From your privileged position, you apparently do not recognize that the URM might be heading home after school to help take care of siblings or a grandparent, may not have time to go to tutoring or participate in 3 Varsity level sports, etc. They might have to work a job to help support the family; they might not be growing up in a home where the parents can help with school work, or with parents who went to college. If your parents didn't attend college, you often grow up with a very different perspective on life than someone whose parents both have Graduate degrees. Maybe they have a learning disability and their family doesn't have the financial resources to provide services that many privileged kids would get (I have lived this; paid $250-300/week for 4+ years to get my own kid on track once I paid for a full neuropsychological evaluation to diagnose the issues. I am so grateful that we as a family could afford to provide this for our kid). You simply don't know their life outside of school.

It really is time for the privileged to start recognizing the great advantages they have over many just from growing up privileged.

Stop the rescue fantasy. Most of the URM they take are coming from upper middle class families. Not all URM are poor.

The ones benefiting most are UMC blacks and Hispanics.

The ones my kid knows are largely not UMC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

I'll start by saying I don't have a problem with what's going on currently in admissions.

I agree with you that everyone is too focuses on the same set of colleges. BUT, I do think that with COVID, test optional, and recent cultural changes that some schools have truly expanded their horizons on how they evaluate candidates. I think in the past that they were more skewed towards test scores aligning with grades and adding in some ECs. Now without test scores, I think they are genuinely looking at other parts of the application in a new way.. It could also be that they are simply recognizing that they have so many applicants who were "qualified" that they should really stop just skewing admissions to those with the highest GPA/test stats and put increased thought into what each applicant might bring to campus (they were doing this before but I think with a smaller pool of high stats kids).

I personally think this is a good thing and will create all kinds of diversity (including the type of white UMC kids they accept). It also means the tip top gpa/test stat kids may not have the same advantages they had before and definitely need to cast a wider net.

But to say that test optional and diversity didn't change anything isn't quite right.

I think it is hard for a student who got better grades and better test scores to see a fellow classmate with worse everything gaining acceptance because they are URM. I have heard it was a really bad year for many MC and UMC white and Asian students.

But there are so few URM students on these campuses and far more legacy kids getting in over your kid. Why not be frustrated with them. BTW my MC white kid did great. Some friends did as well, some good and one OK, but considered it bad b/c she only applied to Ivy/T10 and 1 state. I hear you that disappointment is hard, but don't look at URM kids here. The ones we know have faced much greater challenges than their white and Asian friends and deserve everything they've gotten.

NP. I do complain about legacy, athletes, and donors. And the kids I know have not faced greater challenges than my own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents of seniors at our school are using words like bloodbath to describe the seniors acceptances. Kids who worked hard and did everything they were supposed to are not getting in to top 20-50 schools. Too many white, UMC families who saved and can pay full price are not getting in whereas 10 years ago they would have. It's partly due to test-optional and partly due to more diversity (socio-economic and racial) being sought after at top schools.

No, it’s due to everyone “shooting their shot” at the same colleges. Stop blaming testing and diversity. Colleges have been looking for diverse classes for decades. It’s not new.

What’s new is clear. The applications are exploding at top schools and falling at the rest. The reason is probably layered, from subtle things like adults belittling good options that aren’t impressive (my gosh, even JMU gets ripped here) to grade inflation making parents think their middle of the pack student is at the top of the class…again there are many reasons.

Stop blaming stupid stuff that makes you made and use reason.

I'll start by saying I don't have a problem with what's going on currently in admissions.

I agree with you that everyone is too focuses on the same set of colleges. BUT, I do think that with COVID, test optional, and recent cultural changes that some schools have truly expanded their horizons on how they evaluate candidates. I think in the past that they were more skewed towards test scores aligning with grades and adding in some ECs. Now without test scores, I think they are genuinely looking at other parts of the application in a new way.. It could also be that they are simply recognizing that they have so many applicants who were "qualified" that they should really stop just skewing admissions to those with the highest GPA/test stats and put increased thought into what each applicant might bring to campus (they were doing this before but I think with a smaller pool of high stats kids).

I personally think this is a good thing and will create all kinds of diversity (including the type of white UMC kids they accept). It also means the tip top gpa/test stat kids may not have the same advantages they had before and definitely need to cast a wider net.

But to say that test optional and diversity didn't change anything isn't quite right.

I think it is hard for a student who got better grades and better test scores to see a fellow classmate with worse everything gaining acceptance because they are URM. I have heard it was a really bad year for many MC and UMC white and Asian students.

Wow! Perhaps you don't know the whole story for the URM as a whole person? Test scores and grades are not everything. From your privileged position, you apparently do not recognize that the URM might be heading home after school to help take care of siblings or a grandparent, may not have time to go to tutoring or participate in 3 Varsity level sports, etc. They might have to work a job to help support the family; they might not be growing up in a home where the parents can help with school work, or with parents who went to college. If your parents didn't attend college, you often grow up with a very different perspective on life than someone whose parents both have Graduate degrees. Maybe they have a learning disability and their family doesn't have the financial resources to provide services that many privileged kids would get (I have lived this; paid $250-300/week for 4+ years to get my own kid on track once I paid for a full neuropsychological evaluation to diagnose the issues. I am so grateful that we as a family could afford to provide this for our kid). You simply don't know their life outside of school.

It really is time for the privileged to start recognizing the great advantages they have over many just from growing up privileged.

Stop the rescue fantasy. Most of the URM they take are coming from upper middle class families. Not all URM are poor.

The ones benefiting most are UMC blacks and Hispanics.

This is exactly what I’ve seen in our social circle. Our kids were raised in incredibly similar families, dads had the same kind of jobs, same kinds of degrees, same six figure incomes, same type of high schools, same rigor and test scores, moms college-educated. 2 half Mexican kids to Yale, 2 black kids to Harvard, our white kids rejected from everything with less than a 40% acceptance rate. The program is just not as noble as it seems.

The top ivy admits seem to mostly be African Americans. I’m sure the racial mix at these top schools will be different for this year.

Not true. Were you at the admitted students days? We were. Largely white and Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am hearing about these kids who have near perfect grades, super high SAT scores and strong extracurricular activities and they are getting rejected across the board. The parents are well educated professionals. The kids are getting rejected from their parents’ alma maters.

I feel like this same kids would be ivy bound 20-30 years ago.

If you are full pay it is a blessing in disguise to be rejected. The tuition they want you to pay is a total ripoff. If you are low income I hope they give you a bump.

[Anonymous]

DS had top -- but not over the top stellar -- stats (4.3 GPA, 1440 SAT, range of a few ECs that showed service, academic sport paused during COVID) He didn't build out a big EC high school resume but showed depth and commitment to a food pantry, scouts, model UN. We told him he earned the right to apply to reach schools knowing that it is a lottery, the other 4 or 5 schools needed to be realistic state schools. We prepared him not to be accepted into his reach, life is full of hard lessons. He spent a lot of time on his essays/short answers -- that showed his authentic self. We only proof read. He got into a reach but opted for a state school. It came down to the conversation -- we had only so much $$$ -- he knows he wants to go to grad school going to a state school will still provide some resources to help defray some of the grad school costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am hearing about these kids who have near perfect grades, super high SAT scores and strong extracurricular activities and they are getting rejected across the board. The parents are well educated professionals. The kids are getting rejected from their parents’ alma maters.

I feel like this same kids would be ivy bound 20-30 years ago.

This is not happening. Stop the fear mongering.

It happened twice in my family: once with a nephew and once with my cousin's daughter.

My cousin's daughter graduated #1 in her class last year. Her SAT was in the high 1400s and ACT was nearly perfect at 35. She took a total of 10 AP courses and scored 5s on 6 and 4s on 4. She had strong extracurriculars including a research biology internship two summers in a row.

Rejected from UVA, which was her first choice, and also rejected from W&M, VA Tech, MIT, Stanford, the Ivies, and Duke. She got waitlisted at FSU, UCLA, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Cal Tech, and Rice. She did get off the waitlist at Rice but she was scrambling while on the waitlist to apply to places with rolling admission. Her counselor was stunned.

My cousin and her husband consulted with a professional college counselor after the fact to see what went wrong in preparation for her younger sister when it was her turn to apply. Basically, she was a dime-a-dozen at places like UVA, the ivies, Duke, MIT, etc. and even with her excellent resume, there was nothing that made her stand out. Schools like FSU and UCLA looked at her incredible stats and grouped her as a "she's applying here as a safety" so they waitlisted.

My nephew had good stats but his downfall was parents who were a bit too out of touch with the college process. He's the youngest and there's a big 12 year age gap. Their next youngest was 30 when my nephew was a senior, so they were going off their experiences and expectations from years prior. Both of their older kids went to their alma mater UNC. They are all donors but not HUGE donors and thought he would get in no problem because compared to his siblings, he was a better student and he was also a two-sport athlete. He got rejected from UNC and all the others. Big gut punch for him. He did community college for 1 year and ended up transferring to Wake Forest.

Hmm. This cautionary tale ends with one kid at Rice and another at Wake Forest.