TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

+100

Mostly people with kids that have lazy parents that want to use a measuring stick that doesn't make them look like shitty parents for letting their kids spend all day on instagram.

Tests measure a thing worth measuring and for most of the world, a test (or series of tests) is the primary or ONLY metric used to determine college admissions.

You mistake the point. If TJ test scores drop from 99th percentile to 97th percentile while also increasing geographic, racial and SES diversity, that's a win for all students. The test scores did not drop from 99th percentile to 60th percentile, for example.

The average FCPS high school is above the 60th percentile.

It went from the 99th percentile to something closer to the 94th percentile. That is the equivalent of going from 1530 (TJ old average SAT) to 1410. That is like the difference between Harvard and University of Miami (no disrespect intended to the University of Miami).

But at least you are willing to admit we are sacrificing at least a standard deviations worth of selectivity in order to achieve the desired diversity.
We can discuss whether or not this is a tradeoff that we want to make but there is no discussion to be had when the main proponents on your side deny the facts.

I see no evidence to back up your claim of SAT or PSAT scores.

And if he did, would it change your mind about anything?

I think most people here just have their minds made up and will voice their opinions in the voting booths.

Thank you for confirming that your continued efforts to trash TJ students is politically motivated.

People have voiced their opinions multiple times since they fixed the broken selection process and the county overwhelmingly supports the changes which allowed all students to participate in the process not just those at a few wealthy feeders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

You make it sound like performance on standardized tests are somehow divorced from anything relevant to our discussion.
Standardized test scores does more than measure the ability to take standardized tests, these kinds of standardized tests usually measure cognitive ability.
This is just evidence that we are not selecting for the students with the most cognitive ability.

Or exposure to the test questions!

And you act like it's a bad thing to practice or study? Is it cheating to take a math test after *GASP* being exposed to similar problems in class? A test that measures some level of baseline ability plus the ability to prepare seems like quite a valuable tool for gauging future success . . .

A bunch of bots spouting nonsense here.

So true! Memorizing the test answers so much easier than having to work hard. I wish you could buy your way into to TJ now. It was so much less hassle when you could buy the test than having to be one of the top students.

Being exposed to concepts and similar problems and then applying that learning to solve different problems is not the same as knowing the exact questions that will be asked and memorizing the answers. The former occurred, happens everywhere, and is the basis for all learning. It is not a problem. The latter would be a problem, but there is no evidence that EVER occurred. Why is this simple distinction so hard for so many people to understand?

It is difficult to understand because of confirmation bias.
They don't want to believe that some groups can have more cognitive ability and academic merit than other groups.
Asians believe that cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study, white people seem to believe that it is an immutable trait and if you are measuring something that can be improved through hard work and study, then you are measuring the wrong thing.

DP. This is not a question of what white and Asian people believe.

Of course it is. These are cultural differences that drive public policy differences between asians and whites.
Whites beli3eve that cognitive ability is an inherent trait and asians believe it is largely an acquired trait.
The public policy that follows from those cultural beliefs is different.

The purpose of the Quant-Q exam is to measure a student's ability to quickly develop a solution to a problem of a type they've never seen before.

By keeping the test format a secret.
You aren't testing cognitive ability with ambush testing. You are testing how quickly someone can adopt a new testing format, unless they happened to have seen that format before, then you are testing who has seen that format before. What makes you think that this is an effective means of selecting merit?

We all know the format of the SATs and yet the SATs are the best single predictor of college GPAs at selective colleges.
In fact most contries use a single test 9or series of tests to determine who goes to their best colleges.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe that "cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study". What matters is that the kids who went to Curie (and probably other prep centers, some of which, unlike Curie, serve kids not of South Asian descent) had seen the problem types, and sometimes the exact questions before. Which made the Quant-Q objectively not only useless, but in fact a tool that was used to select the wrong students. And indeed, probably kept a lot of deserving low-income Asian students out of the semifinalist pool altogether!

So then why didn't we stick with the SHSAT?
Oh that's right, they didn't like who was getting selected based on the test scores.
All of this "reform" is directed at racial diversity. So we keep trying to move the goalposts until we find the sweet spot where we get enough black and hispanic kids to avoid embarrassment and increase the white population to an acceptable level so governor's schools don't lose political support. And all of this is done at the expense of merit...asian kids.
There is peer reviewed research out of harvard and brown showing that tests are the best predictor of college GPA at selective colleges.

What keep poor kids out of TJ is likely the holistic stuff.
Proportionally more kids from the pool get in from wealthier schools than poorer schools. For example, from the class of 2024, 60% of the kids that made the pool from Longfellow (a wealthy majority white school) got in while only 42% of the kids from rocky run (a more middle class majority asian school) got in.
But, I would support a preference for poor kids if that would make the medicine of testing go down a bit easier.
I don't think you need it to get a high poor population. Stuyvesant, bronx science and brooklyn tech certainly don't seem to need it to have majority FARM students.
And I don't think you are doing those poor kids any favors by throwing them in the deep end of the pool if they don't have the test scores to get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

You make it sound like performance on standardized tests are somehow divorced from anything relevant to our discussion.
Standardized test scores does more than measure the ability to take standardized tests, these kinds of standardized tests usually measure cognitive ability.
This is just evidence that we are not selecting for the students with the most cognitive ability.

Or exposure to the test questions!

And you act like it's a bad thing to practice or study? Is it cheating to take a math test after *GASP* being exposed to similar problems in class? A test that measures some level of baseline ability plus the ability to prepare seems like quite a valuable tool for gauging future success . . .

A bunch of bots spouting nonsense here.

So true! Memorizing the test answers so much easier than having to work hard. I wish you could buy your way into to TJ now. It was so much less hassle when you could buy the test than having to be one of the top students.

Being exposed to concepts and similar problems and then applying that learning to solve different problems is not the same as knowing the exact questions that will be asked and memorizing the answers. The former occurred, happens everywhere, and is the basis for all learning. It is not a problem. The latter would be a problem, but there is no evidence that EVER occurred. Why is this simple distinction so hard for so many people to understand?

It is difficult to understand because of confirmation bias.
They don't want to believe that some groups can have more cognitive ability and academic merit than other groups.
Asians believe that cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study, white people seem to believe that it is an immutable trait and if you are measuring something that can be improved through hard work and study, then you are measuring the wrong thing.

DP. This is not a question of what white and Asian people believe.

Of course it is. These are cultural differences that drive public policy differences between asians and whites.
Whites beli3eve that cognitive ability is an inherent trait and asians believe it is largely an acquired trait.
The public policy that follows from those cultural beliefs is different.

The purpose of the Quant-Q exam is to measure a student's ability to quickly develop a solution to a problem of a type they've never seen before.

By keeping the test format a secret.
You aren't testing cognitive ability with ambush testing. You are testing how quickly someone can adopt a new testing format, unless they happened to have seen that format before, then you are testing who has seen that format before. What makes you think that this is an effective means of selecting merit?

We all know the format of the SATs and yet the SATs are the best single predictor of college GPAs at selective colleges.
In fact most contries use a single test 9or series of tests to determine who goes to their best colleges.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe that "cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study". What matters is that the kids who went to Curie (and probably other prep centers, some of which, unlike Curie, serve kids not of South Asian descent) had seen the problem types, and sometimes the exact questions before. Which made the Quant-Q objectively not only useless, but in fact a tool that was used to select the wrong students. And indeed, probably kept a lot of deserving low-income Asian students out of the semifinalist pool altogether!

So then why didn't we stick with the SHSAT?
Oh that's right, they didn't like who was getting selected based on the test scores.
All of this "reform" is directed at racial diversity. So we keep trying to move the goalposts until we find the sweet spot where we get enough black and hispanic kids to avoid embarrassment and increase the white population to an acceptable level so governor's schools don't lose political support. And all of this is done at the expense of merit...asian kids.
There is peer reviewed research out of harvard and brown showing that tests are the best predictor of college GPA at selective colleges.

What keep poor kids out of TJ is likely the holistic stuff.
Proportionally more kids from the pool get in from wealthier schools than poorer schools. For example, from the class of 2024, 60% of the kids that made the pool from Longfellow (a wealthy majority white school) got in while only 42% of the kids from rocky run (a more middle class majority asian school) got in.
But, I would support a preference for poor kids if that would make the medicine of testing go down a bit easier.
I don't think you need it to get a high poor population. Stuyvesant, bronx science and brooklyn tech certainly don't seem to need it to have majority FARM students.
And I don't think you are doing those poor kids any favors by throwing them in the deep end of the pool if they don't have the test scores to get in.

You're misinformed. They were using the Qunat-Q, but there were prep companies building question banks to give their clients an unfair advantage. Most of the students being selected came from a few wealthy feeders where most of the students could afford prep with test answer access. This wasn't working so they had to come up with a better system, and it worked out great. TJ is not only stronger than ever now that they're selecting top students instead of those who could afford to buy the test but it's also less toxic.

[Anonymous]

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4. TJ STUDENTS ACKNOWLEDGED UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
TH students and others have acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy.

https://www.tjtoday.org/29411/features/students-divided-on-proposed-changes-to-admissions-process/
“ “Personally, TJ admissions was not a challenge to navigate. I had a sibling who attended before me. However, a lot of resources needed to navigate admissions cost money. That is an unfair advantage given to more economically advantaged students,” junior Vivi Rao said. ”

5. TJ STUDENTS ADMIT SHARING QUANT-Q QUESTIONS
TJ students admitted both on DCUM and on Facebook, anonymously and with real name, that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents
Thread started July 11, 2020

I have screenshots but won’t share because they have student names on them.

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”




6. COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

I guess that settles it.

For now.
There is a difference between SCOTUS no granting certiori and SCOTUS saying this is permissible.
But to be fair, SCOTUS does seem to be deferring to all race blind processes, even when the intent and purpose behind the process was racist. See voter ID laws, literacy exams, poll taxes, grandfather clauses.

Yes, SCOTUS dismissed the TJ case since it was laughable even to them and people using the term discrimination seem confused.

* Asians make up the majority of TJ students
* Selection is race blind
* The changes to the process mainly benefited low-income Asians.
* The court ruled there was no discrimination.

SCOTUS does not usually divulge the reason for not taking a case, but not taking a case is never a comment on the merits and it certainly doesn't imply that the case is laughable. In this case there was a rare dissent from the denial of cert by justice alito (joined by thomas).

By the standards of the 4th circuit, intentional racial discrimination against a racial group would be permissible as long as the discrimination did not result in reducing their success rate below other racial groups. This is pretty clearly an error in law but SCOTUS seemed reluctant to take on another affirmative action case so soon after the harvard case which created so much acrimony between the justices on the court.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-170_7l48.pdf

Alito is quite skilled at misrepresenting judicial opinions. Heytens' opinion in the Fourth Circuit appeal correctly asserted that the burden laid with the Coalition to prove intentional discrimination, and that they failed to do so. He also noted as a matter of settled fact that the policy failed to discriminate against Asian-Americans even if it was FCPS' intent to do so.

Heyton's opinion isn't the co7urt's opinion, it is a concurring opinion and is no more consequential than Rushing's dissenting opinion.
I certainly don't see how it has any more weight than Alito's dissent to granting certiori.
And it is incorrect in light of the SFFA opinion.

SFFA teaches us that discrimination in favor of one race is necessarily discrimination against others.

He also noted (again, correctly) that there was far greater evidence to suggest that the previous policy was discriminatory to Black, Hispanic, and low-income students and that disallowing the removal of such disparate impact would amount to nullifying any attempt to rectify existing injustices on the grounds that they disparately impacted the previously privileged group.

The test was racist? Testing is unjust?
FCPS created a process that discriminated against black hispanic AND WHITE students and in favor of asian students?
You expect anyone to believe that?

An example I hear frequently is that it would be tantamount to a men's rights group suing the University of Virginia back in 1970 for beginning to admit women on the grounds that men would be disproportionately impacted.

And that would be a horrible analogy. Because removing discrimination to admit more women is qualitatively different from imposing discrimination to admit more black/hispanic students (despite the fact that it mostly admits more white students).

FCPS made a change in admissions policy that ended the effective embargo against economically disadvantaged students -

If tests really excluded poor kids then schools like stuyvesant/bronx science/brooklyn tech wouldn't be majority FARM students. Of the FARM students at these schools, 90% of them are asian.

If this was in fact about poor kids, we could have implemented the preference for poor kids without removing testing. But I suspect it would be mostly at the expense of white kids and increase the asian population even more.

and whaddya know, the rich folks came in and tried to turn it into the second coming of Massive Resistance. Shameful.

Liberal racists are just as capable of massive resistance as conservative racists.
The same liberal racists that went after the poor asian kids at stuyvesant are going after wealthy asians here.
You think you are on the side of the angels because you think there is such a thing as good racism and bad racism. And you are wise enough to know the difference. You aren't and you don't.
You are just another white person assuaging your white guilt at the expense of asians.
Asians who never owned slaves, who couldn't become naturalized citizens until 1952, who were interned during WWII, who were subject to mass lynchings by white and hispanic mobs, and succeeded despitethat history of racism in this country.
And that is what is what makes the hopes and dreams of our children expendable in the eyes of liberals.
If we were poorer than whites, liberals would love us as much as they love anyone else that they pity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

Sure, they did it was exactly the same. Stop with the gaslighting already.

Data is not gaslighting no matter how much you wish the data weren't true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


They didn't bother to learn anything at the prep center other than memorize the test answers. It was a way for the wealthier studnets to game admissions.

Just repeating this taunt over and over again doesn’t make this true.

But it does keep this topic alive. This could be a false flag by some C4TJ poster that wants to make the supporters of diversity at TJ seem like lying sacks of shit. Or it could be that trying to defend racial discrimination turns you into a lying lack of shit.

This is what toddlers do. Or people who are puerile.

Trump does this. He keeps telling lies hoping that confirmation bias will save him. The supporters of diversity at TJ are basically trump in liberals clothing.

TJ has had incredible students in the past. The current cohort has a lot to live up to. Good luck to them.

I'm sure the kids there are all incredible in their own way but they will never be able to live up to the previous cohort academically. This much is becoming painfully obvious. I think the SAT results will be the last nail in the coffin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

“No other” is a big claim that you still aren’t backing up with data.

It is an EXTREMELY big claim. One that you could disprove by pointing out even a single FCPS school that saw a 120 point drop. There are only 29 other high schools in FCPS, which ones do you think saw a 120 point drop in PSAT scores?

I clearly disproved YOUR claim that everyone's scores dropped like they did at TJ.
If you understood how standardized tests are normed, it insulates test scores from those sort of dramatic shifts from year to year.
These sort of standardized test scores can drift but it is hard to get them to jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

+100

Mostly people with kids that have lazy parents that want to use a measuring stick that doesn't make them look like shitty parents for letting their kids spend all day on instagram.

Tests measure a thing worth measuring and for most of the world, a test (or series of tests) is the primary or ONLY metric used to determine college admissions.

You mistake the point. If TJ test scores drop from 99th percentile to 97th percentile while also increasing geographic, racial and SES diversity, that's a win for all students. The test scores did not drop from 99th percentile to 60th percentile, for example.

The average FCPS high school is above the 60th percentile.

It went from the 99th percentile to something closer to the 94th percentile. That is the equivalent of going from 1530 (TJ old average SAT) to 1410. That is like the difference between Harvard and University of Miami (no disrespect intended to the University of Miami).

But at least you are willing to admit we are sacrificing at least a standard deviations worth of selectivity in order to achieve the desired diversity.
We can discuss whether or not this is a tradeoff that we want to make but there is no discussion to be had when the main proponents on your side deny the facts.

I see no evidence to back up your claim of SAT or PSAT scores.

And if he did, would it change your mind about anything?

I think most people here just have their minds made up and will voice their opinions in the voting booths.

Thank you for confirming that your continued efforts to trash TJ students is politically motivated.

I think what that post is saying is that your incessant demands for more and more proof for the obvious is never going to change your mind and you are driving people away from democrats in northern virginia so stop being racist against asians it if you don't want to see virginia turn red.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

“No other” is a big claim that you still aren’t backing up with data.

Of course, they can't back it up because it's not true. They are just attempting to misrepresent the learning loss that occurred everywhere because of the pandemic to suit their false narrative.

And yet the virginia state department of education data on SOLs says you don't know what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

You make it sound like performance on standardized tests are somehow divorced from anything relevant to our discussion.
Standardized test scores does more than measure the ability to take standardized tests, these kinds of standardized tests usually measure cognitive ability.
This is just evidence that we are not selecting for the students with the most cognitive ability.

Or exposure to the test questions!

And you act like it's a bad thing to practice or study? Is it cheating to take a math test after *GASP* being exposed to similar problems in class? A test that measures some level of baseline ability plus the ability to prepare seems like quite a valuable tool for gauging future success . . .

A bunch of bots spouting nonsense here.

So true! Memorizing the test answers so much easier than having to work hard. I wish you could buy your way into to TJ now. It was so much less hassle when you could buy the test than having to be one of the top students.

Being exposed to concepts and similar problems and then applying that learning to solve different problems is not the same as knowing the exact questions that will be asked and memorizing the answers. The former occurred, happens everywhere, and is the basis for all learning. It is not a problem. The latter would be a problem, but there is no evidence that EVER occurred. Why is this simple distinction so hard for so many people to understand?

It is difficult to understand because of confirmation bias.
They don't want to believe that some groups can have more cognitive ability and academic merit than other groups.
Asians believe that cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study, white people seem to believe that it is an immutable trait and if you are measuring something that can be improved through hard work and study, then you are measuring the wrong thing.

DP. This is not a question of what white and Asian people believe.

Of course it is. These are cultural differences that drive public policy differences between asians and whites.
Whites beli3eve that cognitive ability is an inherent trait and asians believe it is largely an acquired trait.
The public policy that follows from those cultural beliefs is different.

The purpose of the Quant-Q exam is to measure a student's ability to quickly develop a solution to a problem of a type they've never seen before.

By keeping the test format a secret.
You aren't testing cognitive ability with ambush testing. You are testing how quickly someone can adopt a new testing format, unless they happened to have seen that format before, then you are testing who has seen that format before. What makes you think that this is an effective means of selecting merit?

We all know the format of the SATs and yet the SATs are the best single predictor of college GPAs at selective colleges.
In fact most contries use a single test 9or series of tests to determine who goes to their best colleges.

It doesn't matter whether or not you believe that "cognitive ability can be improved with hard work and study". What matters is that the kids who went to Curie (and probably other prep centers, some of which, unlike Curie, serve kids not of South Asian descent) had seen the problem types, and sometimes the exact questions before. Which made the Quant-Q objectively not only useless, but in fact a tool that was used to select the wrong students. And indeed, probably kept a lot of deserving low-income Asian students out of the semifinalist pool altogether!

So then why didn't we stick with the SHSAT?
Oh that's right, they didn't like who was getting selected based on the test scores.
All of this "reform" is directed at racial diversity. So we keep trying to move the goalposts until we find the sweet spot where we get enough black and hispanic kids to avoid embarrassment and increase the white population to an acceptable level so governor's schools don't lose political support. And all of this is done at the expense of merit...asian kids.
There is peer reviewed research out of harvard and brown showing that tests are the best predictor of college GPA at selective colleges.

What keep poor kids out of TJ is likely the holistic stuff.
Proportionally more kids from the pool get in from wealthier schools than poorer schools. For example, from the class of 2024, 60% of the kids that made the pool from Longfellow (a wealthy majority white school) got in while only 42% of the kids from rocky run (a more middle class majority asian school) got in.
But, I would support a preference for poor kids if that would make the medicine of testing go down a bit easier.
I don't think you need it to get a high poor population. Stuyvesant, bronx science and brooklyn tech certainly don't seem to need it to have majority FARM students.
And I don't think you are doing those poor kids any favors by throwing them in the deep end of the pool if they don't have the test scores to get in.

You're misinformed. They were using the Qunat-Q, but there were prep companies building question banks to give their clients an unfair advantage. Most of the students being selected came from a few wealthy feeders where most of the students could afford prep with test answer access. This wasn't working so they had to come up with a better system, and it worked out great. TJ is not only stronger than ever now that they're selecting top students instead of those who could afford to buy the test but it's also less toxic.

They didn't start using Quant Q until 2018 (for the class of 2022), before that they used the SHSAT.

These SOL results say different https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

“No other” is a big claim that you still aren’t backing up with data.

It is an EXTREMELY big claim. One that you could disprove by pointing out even a single FCPS school that saw a 120 point drop. There are only 29 other high schools in FCPS, which ones do you think saw a 120 point drop in PSAT scores?

I clearly disproved YOUR claim that everyone's scores dropped like they did at TJ.
If you understood how standardized tests are normed, it insulates test scores from those sort of dramatic shifts from year to year.
These sort of standardized test scores can drift but it is hard to get them to jerk.

I haven’t made any claims about scores. It’s on you to support your own hyperbolic claims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A bit tautological... yes, if we want to maximize the average standardized test scores of the attending students we should select/admit students who have the highest standardized test scores. The point is not everyone agrees that maximizing the average standardized test scores of the student body is the primary purpose of the school.

+100

Mostly people with kids that have lazy parents that want to use a measuring stick that doesn't make them look like shitty parents for letting their kids spend all day on instagram.

Tests measure a thing worth measuring and for most of the world, a test (or series of tests) is the primary or ONLY metric used to determine college admissions.

You mistake the point. If TJ test scores drop from 99th percentile to 97th percentile while also increasing geographic, racial and SES diversity, that's a win for all students. The test scores did not drop from 99th percentile to 60th percentile, for example.

The average FCPS high school is above the 60th percentile.

It went from the 99th percentile to something closer to the 94th percentile. That is the equivalent of going from 1530 (TJ old average SAT) to 1410. That is like the difference between Harvard and University of Miami (no disrespect intended to the University of Miami).

But at least you are willing to admit we are sacrificing at least a standard deviations worth of selectivity in order to achieve the desired diversity.
We can discuss whether or not this is a tradeoff that we want to make but there is no discussion to be had when the main proponents on your side deny the facts.

I see no evidence to back up your claim of SAT or PSAT scores.

And if he did, would it change your mind about anything?

I think most people here just have their minds made up and will voice their opinions in the voting booths.

Thank you for confirming that your continued efforts to trash TJ students is politically motivated.

I think what that post is saying is that your incessant demands for more and more proof for the obvious is never going to change your mind and you are driving people away from democrats in northern virginia so stop being racist against asians it if you don't want to see virginia turn red.

Asking you for the data to back up your claims is…racist? Driving people to vote for Republicans?

Talk about hyperbolic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

Sure, they did it was exactly the same. Stop with the gaslighting already.

Data is not gaslighting no matter how much you wish the data weren't true.

What data? We are still waiting on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

“No other” is a big claim that you still aren’t backing up with data.

It is an EXTREMELY big claim. One that you could disprove by pointing out even a single FCPS school that saw a 120 point drop. There are only 29 other high schools in FCPS, which ones do you think saw a 120 point drop in PSAT scores?

I clearly disproved YOUR claim that everyone's scores dropped like they did at TJ.
If you understood how standardized tests are normed, it insulates test scores from those sort of dramatic shifts from year to year.
These sort of standardized test scores can drift but it is hard to get them to jerk.

I haven’t made any claims about scores. It’s on you to support your own hyperbolic claims.

You are claiming that I am wrong. It should be very easy to prove. Name a single FCPS high school where PSAT scores dropped 120 points or more.

It didn't happen anywhere in FCPS just like SOL advance pass rates didn't drop anywhere like it did at TJ. In fact most SOL advance pass rates for 2022 and 2023 were higher than the 2021 rates.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

It baffles me that people are actually trying to argue that the academic ability of TJ students didn't drop. What a way to undermine your own credibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The success that TJ kids had on the old TJ entrance exam was followed by similar success on the PSAT, SAT/ACT, and APs, indicating that their success was real and based on aptitude and hard work. The latter are qualities which we should be lauding.

The same can be said about the kids getting now. Except it's less toxic since they got rid of the cheaters.

But the kids getting in now are scoring over 100 points lower on the PSAT and scoring advance pass at much lower rates than students admitted under previous classes.

Test scores have been down across the board since the pandemic. This has nothing to do with TJ. You will have to try harder.

Tell me you don't understand how SATs are scored without telling me you don't understand how SATs are scored.

Why would test scores drop so much for TJ but not for any other high schools?

Here is a chart of SAT scores over time. Based on this chart, someone who didn't know about the pandemic would never be able to guess a pandemic occurred.
This is by design. SATs are not curved within an administration but they are equated across administrations so you are not likely to see large jumps in median scores from one administration of the test to the next. SAT scores can and do drift but there shouldn't be any sudden drops or rises without a recentering or something.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Citation for “any” other school?

See the link.
There was no COVID effect.
Even if you provided an example of a single school that saw a large decline the fact remains that the drop is not the result of COVID because the AVERAGE DIDN'T CHANGE.

This is what we call pettifoggery. Asking people to prove unimportant details that wouldn't even undermine the argument.

The comment was “not for any other high schools“, not the average. Very different.

This is what we call misleading.

No other schools saw this sort of drop. Virginia published median SAT scores and the way tests are normed prevent the sort of drop from happening because of something like covid.
No other school in FCPS saw a 120 point drop. None of the magnet schools in NYC saw this sort of drop. Maggie Walker didn't see this sort of drop. It's pretty much ONLY TJ.

Sure, they did it was exactly the same. Stop with the gaslighting already.

Data is not gaslighting no matter how much you wish the data weren't true.

What data? We are still waiting on it.

This has been posted so many times it borders on the ridiculous.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results