Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

A course correction for Israel is needed and it starts with getting rid of the guy who was obsessed all summer with getting rid of the Israeli judiciary’s power to investigate him for corruption and send him to jail instead of obsessing over Hamas and how to keep Israel safe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" but I would say there hasn't been a lot of forward thinking there. Your whole plan can't be, we're going to terrorism our way into a goal that is literally impossible to achieve.

I would say some of their goals were met. One of their goals was to release Palestinian prisoners and the other goal was to ruin Israel’s world image.

The problem is this was at a heavy cost. 20,000 Gazans dead that aren’t going to come back. I believe it will be Gazans themselves who will turn on Hamas before Israel gets rid of them. The opposition and anger to Hamas has to come from within. Hamas will not be destroyed by Israel even if they level Gaza completely . It can only be destroyed by their own people but it is difficult because during a war, people typically become more hateful to the opposition and loyal and patriotic to their government and Hamas knows this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.

If the Hamas citizens were intelligent, they would be celebrating the arrival of the IDF on their humanitarian mission and offering their support. Instead they continue to back Hamas and attach the brave men and women (heroes) of the IDF every day.

Attach? Go back to Hasbara school .


Israel’s biggest problem/blind spot is they think Palestinians are unintelligent. Hamas outsmarted Israel with all its technological and military advances-they still can’t find a couple thousand men underground in a territory as small as Manhattan with all the help in the world from the best of the best. This is the same country that thinks they can fight Lebanon or Iran?

You aren’t smarter than your neighbors not in military intelligence or in media any more either. Israel shot itself in the foot with the 40 beheaded babies and hospital social media errors and the world has been watching ever since

So you think thousands of terrorists hiding in tunnels is a winning strategy for Palestinians?

Throw in the rapes and the sadism.

Firing a bunch of dumb rockets doesn't make you smart. You hit your own hospital in Ramallah yesterday for god's sake. Just as you did with Al Shifa

Dumbasses

I mean, really.

A breathtakingly stupid population. You choose war, and your men are extremely mediocre. How do you negotiate with this?

[Anonymous]

The massive tunnel 500 feet or so from Israel’s border is beyond weird. The death cult Hamas spent a ton of money on this and steals from aid trucks, hides weapons in incubators, booby traps every house it can, so on and so forth. Its useful idiots need to find other “freedom” fighters to cheer on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.

They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.

I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.

I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?

Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.

But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.

What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.

They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.

But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.

I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.

Because, as can be proven on this thread over and over again, we cannot trust the rest of the world to come in and save us.

If the Jewish people want to still be around in 20-30 years, we have to stand up for ourselves now. Period. We have the right to defend ourselves, regardless of what the pro-Hamas UN says.

The welfare queen talks. Commit genocide without our dollars.

I have never seen a bunch of advocates for a cause that were more rude or caustic than pro Palestine supporters.

+1

They’re genuinely awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" but I would say there hasn't been a lot of forward thinking there. Your whole plan can't be, we're going to terrorism our way into a goal that is literally impossible to achieve.

I would say some of their goals were met. One of their goals was to release Palestinian prisoners and the other goal was to ruin Israel’s world image.

The problem is this was at a heavy cost. 20,000 Gazans dead that aren’t going to come back. I believe it will be Gazans themselves who will turn on Hamas before Israel gets rid of them. The opposition and anger to Hamas has to come from within. Hamas will not be destroyed by Israel even if they level Gaza completely . It can only be destroyed by their own people but it is difficult because during a war, people typically become more hateful to the opposition and loyal and patriotic to their government and Hamas knows this.

If Israel wants Gazans to turn on Hamas, they need to be the alternative. Israel must stop all settlement building and pull out of most of the existing settlements in the West Bank. Then Israel can fund partnerships to work with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Over enough time, the partnership will be a better alternative than Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" but I would say there hasn't been a lot of forward thinking there. Your whole plan can't be, we're going to terrorism our way into a goal that is literally impossible to achieve.

I would say some of their goals were met. One of their goals was to release Palestinian prisoners and the other goal was to ruin Israel’s world image.

The problem is this was at a heavy cost. 20,000 Gazans dead that aren’t going to come back. I believe it will be Gazans themselves who will turn on Hamas before Israel gets rid of them. The opposition and anger to Hamas has to come from within. Hamas will not be destroyed by Israel even if they level Gaza completely . It can only be destroyed by their own people but it is difficult because during a war, people typically become more hateful to the opposition and loyal and patriotic to their government and Hamas knows this.

DP. Ruined Israel’s world image? Very few countries liked Israel before October 7. I disagree with that, but it is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently, there’s no limit to the depth of IDF cruelty and depravity we’re going to hear about in this conflict. War crimes are very clearly SOP. Hell, IDF personnel seem to commit about 2-3 Abu Ghraibs per day.

Nobody takes issue with pursuing Hamas after 10/7. However, what’s happening in Gaza is despicable, and a stain on not just Israel, but also the U.S. for enabling it.

Lots of adjectives sharing feelings. What are we to do with all of that?

Ah, the “feelings” guy is back.

Well, just for you, what you’re supposed to do with it is STFU, thank every American you encounter for continuing the welfare for Israel, and stay out of the way while civilized adults work through the process of advancing civilization.

Begging for sympathy so sad. Please feel sorry for us you are not feeling sorry enough Americans!
As Bill Maher said, Israel is not going anywhere. Americans do not feel bad for having diplomatic relations with a country that helps advance its interest. You all find a country to work with on the same level, instead of failing in telling people what they must feel and begging for love and attention on the internet.

Bill maher is now the spokesperson for the Jews? He is an ass. Can’t you find someone better

[Anonymous]

Joe Biden may be concerned about Arab American votes in Michigan as a political matter. But he does seem to be pro-Israel on a fundamental level. If Biden is reelected, as is likely, he will no longer have to care about votes in Michigan, campus cosplayers, etc. But if he isn’t re-elected, there’s Trump, and that would be even worse for those out there who hate Israel.

[Anonymous]

I’m still waiting for any reasonable sounding answer to “what’s next?” Israel and Palestine are not going anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Hamas may be evil but hard not to admit that they are very smart. They have built a maze of extremely sophisticated tunnels. Where did they get the know how and technology. At least one massive tunnel is right next to an Israeli border crossing. How did they dig the tunnel right under Israel’s nose? They also know how to play the long game. They have probably been planning this for 10 years.
With their tenacity, won’t they just come back eventually? How will Israel know when Hamas is destroyed? You can kill off all the leadership but I’m sure they must have a detailed succession plan. Terrifying situation. The smartest thing to do is come up with a peace treaty accepted by both sides.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hamas may be evil but hard not to admit that they are very smart. They have built a maze of extremely sophisticated tunnels. Where did they get the know how and technology. At least one massive tunnel is right next to an Israeli border crossing. How did they dig the tunnel right under Israel’s nose? They also know how to play the long game. They have probably been planning this for 10 years.
With their tenacity, won’t they just come back eventually? How will Israel know when Hamas is destroyed? You can kill off all the leadership but I’m sure they must have a detailed succession plan. Terrifying situation. The smartest thing to do is come up with a peace treaty accepted by both sides.

Nah. The smartest thing to do is neutralize the current leadership. Where did they get the “know how and technology”? I’m no detective, but one guess would be Iran.

[Anonymous]

Times of Israel:

“Israeli forces announced Sunday that they had discovered tunnels under Gaza vacation homes used by senior Hamas leaders, as well as another shaft located under a baby’s crib in the northern Strip, as widespread fighting continued across the territory.”

Gaza vacation homes? Vacation from what? Planning the slaughter of Jews?

[Anonymous]

People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.

They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.

I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.

I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?

Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.

But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.

What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.

They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.

But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.

I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.

Not the previous poster.

The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.

But it will take time. These are not simple operations.

In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead

And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.

You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?

Given

Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).

I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.