IEP / 504 question --- high school class, ability to take in a different format

[Anonymous]

DC / 8th grader with a dyscalc diagnosis (and a 504 as a result).

Math has been a struggle but they are still just about average (statewide norms). Since 6th grade they are technically in advanced / 9th grade (but it's essentially what most on the college path are in). This year has been awful and I know some--but not all--relates to the teacher. Tutors do not see any major issues; just needs patience and explanations.

I'm worried about high school where all classes -- including their current level has "academic" and "honors." Multiple teachers have basically said to avoid academic at all costs due to disruptions/behavioral issues. However, I don't really think DC is up to honors level work in math.

Ideally, we would want them to do math at a state run virtual school OR a specialized school for kids with LDs. I know this is district dependent (we are in NC, so not expecting anyone to know) but in general how unusual would this approach be...OR tips to advocate for DC.

[Anonymous]

What North Carolina district are you in? I don't believe you can take all but one class at your regular school and then math virtually or at another school, but your district may be more flexible than mine (large, very bureaucratic, little flexibility).

At least where I am, the vast majority of "honors" classes aren't really honors, imo. At least not as I understood honors to be when I was in high school--admittedly in the dark ages of the 1990s.

[Anonymous]

PP, forgot to add, I'm in North Carolina as well, and work education-adjacent, so I'm not talking completely out of my butt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm worried about high school where all classes -- including their current level has "academic" and "honors." Multiple teachers have basically said to avoid academic at all costs due to disruptions/behavioral issues. However, I don't really think DC is up to honors level work in math.

In the DMV, what the teachers said to you would depend on the school. The higher the SES and more competitive the school, the more I have seen this to be the case - especially for 9th and 10th grade math (less so in the later years). In lower SES schools, taking "academic"/on level classes doesn't come with such a behavioral difference. Ask yourself whether your kid can tolerate disruptions, open cheating, and disengaged classmates. Will they be influenced by it?

[Anonymous]

If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What North Carolina district are you in? I don't believe you can take all but one class at your regular school and then math virtually or at another school, but your district may be more flexible than mine (large, very bureaucratic, little flexibility).

At least where I am, the vast majority of "honors" classes aren't really honors, imo. At least not as I understood honors to be when I was in high school--admittedly in the dark ages of the 1990s.

We are in WCPSS so pretty much as large as you get. Yes, very true about honors not being real honors in ela and social, but think there are some bigger differences in math (and to some degree science)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

Thank you for the detailed response; this was perhaps the push I needed to I decide to ask for an IEP, even if the only outcome is getting closer to an alternate math class which we feel is the best option (and one we would be willing to pay for). A few days ago I made some pretty basic requests (after documenting just how awful the teacher is) and they couldn't/wouldn't give DC any extra help--so the IEP seems like the only option.

As for the initial path (DC tested late spring so started process in the fall). The private neuropsych (with decades of experience) had always talked of getting an 504 vs. IEP. The first step at the school was an IEP evaluation (with all the documentation above) but that was denied based on DC not necessarily needing special instruction. At the time we agreed. We are/were happy with the accommodations. I am still not sure they need it; just need a teacher that is good at teaching and well organized. Math this year has been such a dumpster fire and it's hard to really get an accurate sense of where DC would be with a different teacher, but this is where we are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

Thank you for the detailed response; this was perhaps the push I needed to I decide to ask for an IEP, even if the only outcome is getting closer to an alternate math class which we feel is the best option (and one we would be willing to pay for). A few days ago I made some pretty basic requests (after documenting just how awful the teacher is) and they couldn't/wouldn't give DC any extra help--so the IEP seems like the only option.

As for the initial path (DC tested late spring so started process in the fall). The private neuropsych (with decades of experience) had always talked of getting an 504 vs. IEP. The first step at the school was an IEP evaluation (with all the documentation above) but that was denied based on DC not necessarily needing special instruction. At the time we agreed. We are/were happy with the accommodations. I am still not sure they need it; just need a teacher that is good at teaching and well organized. Math this year has been such a dumpster fire and it's hard to really get an accurate sense of where DC would be with a different teacher, but this is where we are.

Sadly IEPs don’t cover poor instruction… if your child is scoring average in math it seems like a tough lift to convince the school there is a disability that requires special education. I think you need to put your energy into setting up supports at home and establishing good communication with the teacher. I am not familiar with NC but seems unlikely that you can get just one class given online or in a different school just because you don’t like the teaching method.

[Anonymous]

My son with dyscalculia, ADHD, autism and low processing speed went all the way to AP Calc BC, which last turned out to be too hard for him. It was senior year, and he couldn't deal with that plus college applications. But he got straight As up to and including AP Calc AB in 11th grade, with meds for his ADHD, a double time accommodation and calculator accommodation written in his IEP. He got the IEP in Kindergarten, due to a global developmental delay and need for speech therapy, among a host of other issues.

So, it can be done... but we taught him math ourselves until high school, and then we hired expensive one-on-one tutors. Maybe your son needs a different tutor, OP? Their talents vary wildly. He needs someone in the summer to teach the upcoming material as well, this is essential to his understanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm worried about high school where all classes -- including their current level has "academic" and "honors." Multiple teachers have basically said to avoid academic at all costs due to disruptions/behavioral issues. However, I don't really think DC is up to honors level work in math.

In the DMV, what the teachers said to you would depend on the school. The higher the SES and more competitive the school, the more I have seen this to be the case - especially for 9th and 10th grade math (less so in the later years). In lower SES schools, taking "academic"/on level classes doesn't come with such a behavioral difference. Ask yourself whether your kid can tolerate disruptions, open cheating, and disengaged classmates. Will they be influenced by it?

The school draws from both SES groups (almost evenly). So the academic track likely would have the disruptions / disengaged classmates. The math sequence (at least in 9/10) is required for all but a small number of kids. A few teachers at the school were the ones who said to avoid academic during a parent open house (have older kids) so it really does seem to be a legitimate concern. It would definitely be a major barrier for DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

Thank you for the detailed response; this was perhaps the push I needed to I decide to ask for an IEP, even if the only outcome is getting closer to an alternate math class which we feel is the best option (and one we would be willing to pay for). A few days ago I made some pretty basic requests (after documenting just how awful the teacher is) and they couldn't/wouldn't give DC any extra help--so the IEP seems like the only option.

As for the initial path (DC tested late spring so started process in the fall). The private neuropsych (with decades of experience) had always talked of getting an 504 vs. IEP. The first step at the school was an IEP evaluation (with all the documentation above) but that was denied based on DC not necessarily needing special instruction. At the time we agreed. We are/were happy with the accommodations. I am still not sure they need it; just need a teacher that is good at teaching and well organized. Math this year has been such a dumpster fire and it's hard to really get an accurate sense of where DC would be with a different teacher, but this is where we are.

I just want to note that despite the other PP's post, public schools do not provide specialized instruction for either dyscalculia or dyslexia. They provide accommodations like a calculator, extra time, or in the case of dyslexia, time with a reading specialist (who is not trained in dyslexic methods). There is no instruction specifically tailored to these learning disabilities. I don't know about private schools for kids with SN, but I'm not even sure they have specialized instruction either...

FYI, so you don't get your hopes up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son with dyscalculia, ADHD, autism and low processing speed went all the way to AP Calc BC, which last turned out to be too hard for him. It was senior year, and he couldn't deal with that plus college applications. But he got straight As up to and including AP Calc AB in 11th grade, with meds for his ADHD, a double time accommodation and calculator accommodation written in his IEP. He got the IEP in Kindergarten, due to a global developmental delay and need for speech therapy, among a host of other issues.

So, it can be done... but we taught him math ourselves until high school, and then we hired expensive one-on-one tutors. Maybe your son needs a different tutor, OP? Their talents vary wildly. He needs someone in the summer to teach the upcoming material as well, this is essential to his understanding.

Wow, kudos that's an awesome story about your son. It took a lot of work to find a good tutor and think we finally have a good fit. She teaches at a school for kids with LDs and has already provided really solid feedback. It's only be a handful of sessions so far and yes we plan to do a lot of work over the summer.

[Anonymous]

Yes, you need an IEP or 504, especially if you have documentation of need. Do it now as it can take 6-12 months to get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

Thank you for the detailed response; this was perhaps the push I needed to I decide to ask for an IEP, even if the only outcome is getting closer to an alternate math class which we feel is the best option (and one we would be willing to pay for). A few days ago I made some pretty basic requests (after documenting just how awful the teacher is) and they couldn't/wouldn't give DC any extra help--so the IEP seems like the only option.

As for the initial path (DC tested late spring so started process in the fall). The private neuropsych (with decades of experience) had always talked of getting an 504 vs. IEP. The first step at the school was an IEP evaluation (with all the documentation above) but that was denied based on DC not necessarily needing special instruction. At the time we agreed. We are/were happy with the accommodations. I am still not sure they need it; just need a teacher that is good at teaching and well organized. Math this year has been such a dumpster fire and it's hard to really get an accurate sense of where DC would be with a different teacher, but this is where we are.

Sadly IEPs don’t cover poor instruction… if your child is scoring average in math it seems like a tough lift to convince the school there is a disability that requires special education. I think you need to put your energy into setting up supports at home and establishing good communication with the teacher. I am not familiar with NC but seems unlikely that you can get just one class given online or in a different school just because you don’t like the teaching method.

Thank you, we have set up supports at home and now have a solid tutor. In terms of teacher communication, we have tried. Teacher basically ignores us. Has not responded to multiple attempts at contact (including things that are in the 504). Does not seem to care when DC fails quizzes. Its a huge laundry list of issues.

On one hand it feels like a stretch to try to ask permission to take the class virtually (it exists, NC has a fully functioning virtual school) however kids are allowed to take to accelerate or lots of other reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have diagnosed dyscalculia, you should have an IEP not a 504 plan.

A 504 plan does not provide any special instruction, and typically a kid with dyscalculia would need special instruction. A 504 plan would typically just provide different accommodations like extra time, copy of class notes, test on test booklet, use of a calculator, etc. What is in your 504 plan?

Did you request an IEP and get turned down for that and we’re offered in 504 plan in the alternative? Or did you go to your school and say that your son needed help and they offered a 504 plan?

To successfully get an IEP one must show the following three things: 1)evidence of a disorder, 2) evidence of adverse impact on education and 3) need for special instruction.

You want to ask your school district that your child be placed in a different environment from the general Ed classroom in order to successfully learn math, but you do not have the legal paperwork that shows that your child even needs special instruction in math, i.e. the IEP. If you had an IEP, the school system would be obliged to provide special instruction in math, and the first step is typically to provide that instruction in the homeschool either through push in services or pull out services.

What you are asking for is not only for the school system to give your child special instruction, but to give it to him in an environment that is more restrictive than the general education environment. Legally, I think it’s very unlikely that any school system would make that leap.

My advice to you is to ask in writing formally for an IEP. Go to the IEP screening meaning with as much documentation as you can gather to show your students dyscalculia diagnosis, the way it is adversely impacting his education (can be but is not limited to grades, can also include a comparison of achievement with IQ, suggesting a large gap between the two, can also be how much extra time effort and tutoring is being put in to just maintaining the bear grade level performance), and showing the necessity of special education (some documentation that shows for a diagnosis of dyscalculia that certain kinds of math instruction that aren’t provided in general education are more necessary and successful). If the school system decides that it needs to take the 60 days, it is entitled to to assess your child, make sure that assessment is done by a school psychologist and includes IQ and achievement evaluation in all areas, not just math. Also ask for an evaluation of attention, executive function, anxiety, etc. Make sure you receive the results of any school assessment prior to the final IEP determination meeting. If you get an IEP, at that time when the IEP goals are being written with you, you can discuss with the team, the very kinds of special instruction and where they would be provided at school or in an outside location.

Thank you for the detailed response; this was perhaps the push I needed to I decide to ask for an IEP, even if the only outcome is getting closer to an alternate math class which we feel is the best option (and one we would be willing to pay for). A few days ago I made some pretty basic requests (after documenting just how awful the teacher is) and they couldn't/wouldn't give DC any extra help--so the IEP seems like the only option.

As for the initial path (DC tested late spring so started process in the fall). The private neuropsych (with decades of experience) had always talked of getting an 504 vs. IEP. The first step at the school was an IEP evaluation (with all the documentation above) but that was denied based on DC not necessarily needing special instruction. At the time we agreed. We are/were happy with the accommodations. I am still not sure they need it; just need a teacher that is good at teaching and well organized. Math this year has been such a dumpster fire and it's hard to really get an accurate sense of where DC would be with a different teacher, but this is where we are.

I just want to note that despite the other PP's post, public schools do not provide specialized instruction for either dyscalculia or dyslexia. They provide accommodations like a calculator, extra time, or in the case of dyslexia, time with a reading specialist (who is not trained in dyslexic methods). There is no instruction specifically tailored to these learning disabilities. I don't know about private schools for kids with SN, but I'm not even sure they have specialized instruction either...

FYI, so you don't get your hopes up.

I want to draw a distinction - public schools are legally required to provide special instruction for any SLD (dysgraphia, dyslexia, or dyscalculia, which are referred to explicitly in IDEA federal law by the name “SLD” plus whichever area of weakness) as long as the kid meets the disorder, adverse impact, need for special instruction analysis.

It’s a different question PP is raising about whether the school is willing or capable of providing instruction effectively. There are instructional packages for dyslexia. There are instructional approaches and tools for dysclaculia and dysgraphia. Yes, the instruction might be crappy or ineffective, and, if so, you might have other options in terms of due process with the school system, but first step is always get the IEP with goals and number of hours. Then track implementation and effect and decide if it’s working or not. don’t read “schools don’t provide special instruction” as “just settle for the 504”