Impact of CAP/Poolesville Humanities/etc not being criteria-based anymore?

[Anonymous]

Looks like the MCPS plan is to make Blair CAP and Poolesville Humanities interest-based rather than criteria-based, along with all new humanities regional programs. (And more broadly speaking, IB programs would be the only criteria-based option if you don't want a program focused on science or visual/performing arts.)

Can anyone with experience with these programs, or with the difference between criteria-based and interest-based programs more generally, speak to the potential impact of this and whether you think it is concerning or would work out fine? How competitive/selective are these programs, and how much does the cohort makeup affect the experience? Are the classes currently challenging enough that an interest-based cohort would be unlikely to be able to handle them and hence they would likely be watered down moving forward? Would this be a modest change or a "these programs will no longer exist as we know them" kind of change?

(My oldest is not yet in HS but we had envisioned CAP or a similar humanities magnet as a possible pathway for her (we're not big fans of IB.) We're not hung up on the prestige of a criteria-based vs interest-based program, just more interested in the practicality of whether she would be able to access a rigorous, challenging program in the humanities that prepares her well for college that is not IB. We can't be the only ones, and so if folks think this proposal would significantly degrade the opportunities for kids like her I'd like to organize with others to push for the continuation and expansion of criteria-based humanities programs. But if it's likely no big deal, I'm glad to just be reassured!)

[Anonymous]

My friend’s kid attended a middle school magnet interested based. The child left after a year due to behavioral problems with the kids.

For me, the biggest benefit of a criteria based magnet is to not have behavioral problem kids in the classroom. I think it’s bigger than the acceleration to be honest.

[Anonymous]

Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

[Anonymous]

Could someone clarify, is the Richard Montgomery HS IB program going to become interest based, or will it remain criteria based but only for its zone students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

+1 While admission to CAP has never been as fierce as the STEM programs, it is an exemplary model for kids whose passion is Humanities/Media/Communication. Making it interest-based may not impact the curriculum, but it will impact the student experience given the focus on group projects. Almost every CAP project is done in a group, so it's going to be immensely frustrating for the kids who really want to be there, compared to the kids who don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

+1 While admission to CAP has never been as fierce as the STEM programs, it is an exemplary model for kids whose passion is Humanities/Media/Communication. Making it interest-based may not impact the curriculum, but it will impact the student experience given the focus on group projects. Almost every CAP project is done in a group, so it's going to be immensely frustrating for the kids who really want to be there, compared to the kids who don't.

Interest-based would indicate the kids want to be there. The lack of criteria in admissions may mean their capability is not as uniformly appropriate to higher-level aims within the magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Could someone clarify, is the Richard Montgomery HS IB program going to become interest based, or will it remain criteria based but only for its zone students?

All the IB programs remain criteria-based.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My friend’s kid attended a middle school magnet interested based. The child left after a year due to behavioral problems with the kids.

For me, the biggest benefit of a criteria based magnet is to not have behavioral problem kids in the classroom. I think it’s bigger than the acceleration to be honest.

Does the admissions committee get a behavioral report on candidates, or are we assuming higher performance comes with fewer behavioral problems?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

+1 While admission to CAP has never been as fierce as the STEM programs, it is an exemplary model for kids whose passion is Humanities/Media/Communication. Making it interest-based may not impact the curriculum, but it will impact the student experience given the focus on group projects. Almost every CAP project is done in a group, so it's going to be immensely frustrating for the kids who really want to be there, compared to the kids who don't.

I'm glad to hear about this for another reason: it has always been my impression that CAP is a continuation of some of the interests and processes begun in the MS humanities magnets, and the net outcome is essentially media studies. This is absolutely a good and honorable thing for the kids who love this, but I have a traditional humanities kid (think history and literature, manifestly _not_ digital media, filmmaking, or journalism) who doesn't give a hang about anything hands-on digital and considers doing well in STEM courses as their job, not their pleasure. Is there a place for a kid like this in the new MCPS model--or the existing one, for that matter? Yes, one can always hope to develop new interests, but I'd also like them to have the chance to really cultivate their (strong) existing ones and be around other kids who love to read and love the past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Can anyone with experience with these programs, or with the difference between criteria-based and interest-based programs more generally, speak to the potential impact of this and whether you think it is concerning or would work out fine? How competitive/selective are these programs, and how much does the cohort makeup affect the experience? Are the classes currently challenging enough that an interest-based cohort would be unlikely to be able to handle them and hence they would likely be watered down moving forward? Would this be a modest change or a "these programs will no longer exist as we know them" kind of change?

I have a rising senior in the Poolesville Humanities program and I thought you should hear directly from a student in one of these programs. Here's what my DD had to say.

While the program is challenging and competitive (60 seats per grade for the entirety of the upcounty region), the rigor alone is not what makes PHS Humanities so special. The experience depends on students who are fast-paced learners, strong readers/writers and researchers, and motivated to form a tight-knit community with peers at their level. The cohort is the foundation of the experience. Being in classes with the same group of people throughout high school builds community, and that has been one of the best parts of going to PHS. I can't imagine myself anywhere else, and that's because of the people.

If you take away the cohort, Humanities is just a list of a bunch of AP classes that can be replicated at any school. 9th grade, AP Gov; 10th grade, AP Seminar and APUSH; 11th grade, AP Lang, AP World, and AP Art History; 12th grade, AP Research and AP Lit. Aside from two classes that were designed only for Humanities, you can get the full program experience anywhere....right? Except the cohort informs class discussions, the interdisciplinary projects, group work, field trips, etc. It just wouldn't be the same.

If it became interest-based, the rigor would definitely be reduced to accommodate the students who wouldn't previously have been accepted. I went to the middle school Humanities magnet at MLK, which became lottery-based during the pandemic starting with the class two years behind me. When I was in 8th grade, one of the program teachers confided that there was a noticeable difference in the abilities of the 6th graders and that the speed and rigor of the class were affected.

Ultimately, I haven't heard anything about this change from selective criteria-based to interest-based, but I hope it doesn't happen. Humanities would go from a program to a list of classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can anyone with experience with these programs, or with the difference between criteria-based and interest-based programs more generally, speak to the potential impact of this and whether you think it is concerning or would work out fine? How competitive/selective are these programs, and how much does the cohort makeup affect the experience? Are the classes currently challenging enough that an interest-based cohort would be unlikely to be able to handle them and hence they would likely be watered down moving forward? Would this be a modest change or a "these programs will no longer exist as we know them" kind of change?

I have a rising senior in the Poolesville Humanities program and I thought you should hear directly from a student in one of these programs. Here's what my DD had to say.

While the program is challenging and competitive (60 seats per grade for the entirety of the upcounty region), the rigor alone is not what makes PHS Humanities so special. The experience depends on students who are fast-paced learners, strong readers/writers and researchers, and motivated to form a tight-knit community with peers at their level. The cohort is the foundation of the experience. Being in classes with the same group of people throughout high school builds community, and that has been one of the best parts of going to PHS. I can't imagine myself anywhere else, and that's because of the people.

If you take away the cohort, Humanities is just a list of a bunch of AP classes that can be replicated at any school. 9th grade, AP Gov; 10th grade, AP Seminar and APUSH; 11th grade, AP Lang, AP World, and AP Art History; 12th grade, AP Research and AP Lit. Aside from two classes that were designed only for Humanities, you can get the full program experience anywhere....right? Except the cohort informs class discussions, the interdisciplinary projects, group work, field trips, etc. It just wouldn't be the same.

If it became interest-based, the rigor would definitely be reduced to accommodate the students who wouldn't previously have been accepted. I went to the middle school Humanities magnet at MLK, which became lottery-based during the pandemic starting with the class two years behind me. When I was in 8th grade, one of the program teachers confided that there was a noticeable difference in the abilities of the 6th graders and that the speed and rigor of the class were affected.

Ultimately, I haven't heard anything about this change from selective criteria-based to interest-based, but I hope it doesn't happen. Humanities would go from a program to a list of classes.

Send your concern to BOE and cc Taylor and Nicky Porter. They have no idea about these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can anyone with experience with these programs, or with the difference between criteria-based and interest-based programs more generally, speak to the potential impact of this and whether you think it is concerning or would work out fine? How competitive/selective are these programs, and how much does the cohort makeup affect the experience? Are the classes currently challenging enough that an interest-based cohort would be unlikely to be able to handle them and hence they would likely be watered down moving forward? Would this be a modest change or a "these programs will no longer exist as we know them" kind of change?

I have a rising senior in the Poolesville Humanities program and I thought you should hear directly from a student in one of these programs. Here's what my DD had to say.

While the program is challenging and competitive (60 seats per grade for the entirety of the upcounty region), the rigor alone is not what makes PHS Humanities so special. The experience depends on students who are fast-paced learners, strong readers/writers and researchers, and motivated to form a tight-knit community with peers at their level. The cohort is the foundation of the experience. Being in classes with the same group of people throughout high school builds community, and that has been one of the best parts of going to PHS. I can't imagine myself anywhere else, and that's because of the people.

If you take away the cohort, Humanities is just a list of a bunch of AP classes that can be replicated at any school. 9th grade, AP Gov; 10th grade, AP Seminar and APUSH; 11th grade, AP Lang, AP World, and AP Art History; 12th grade, AP Research and AP Lit. Aside from two classes that were designed only for Humanities, you can get the full program experience anywhere....right? Except the cohort informs class discussions, the interdisciplinary projects, group work, field trips, etc. It just wouldn't be the same.

If it became interest-based, the rigor would definitely be reduced to accommodate the students who wouldn't previously have been accepted. I went to the middle school Humanities magnet at MLK, which became lottery-based during the pandemic starting with the class two years behind me. When I was in 8th grade, one of the program teachers confided that there was a noticeable difference in the abilities of the 6th graders and that the speed and rigor of the class were affected.

Ultimately, I haven't heard anything about this change from selective criteria-based to interest-based, but I hope it doesn't happen. Humanities would go from a program to a list of classes.

Send your concern to BOE and cc Taylor and Nicky Porter. They have no idea about these.

Of course Niki (Hazel) Porter knows (I imagine Taylor does, as well, but he's only been around a year vs. Porter's many, and this is within/very proximate to her sphere of influence, whereas Taylor has the whole kit and caboodle conpeting for his attention).

Support for it simply isn't her interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

+1 While admission to CAP has never been as fierce as the STEM programs, it is an exemplary model for kids whose passion is Humanities/Media/Communication. Making it interest-based may not impact the curriculum, but it will impact the student experience given the focus on group projects. Almost every CAP project is done in a group, so it's going to be immensely frustrating for the kids who really want to be there, compared to the kids who don't.

I'm glad to hear about this for another reason: it has always been my impression that CAP is a continuation of some of the interests and processes begun in the MS humanities magnets, and the net outcome is essentially media studies. This is absolutely a good and honorable thing for the kids who love this, but I have a traditional humanities kid (think history and literature, manifestly _not_ digital media, filmmaking, or journalism) who doesn't give a hang about anything hands-on digital and considers doing well in STEM courses as their job, not their pleasure. Is there a place for a kid like this in the new MCPS model--or the existing one, for that matter? Yes, one can always hope to develop new interests, but I'd also like them to have the chance to really cultivate their (strong) existing ones and be around other kids who love to read and love the past.

See above about Poolesville Humanities, though I would presume you would need to move. Also RMIB (for now, anyway) -- less focused, as IB is an entire curriculum across subject areas, but accounting for more class periods, thus offering something of the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah I noticed that for CAP and am concerned about how that will work (speaking as a parent who does have experience with the program). It’s pretty rigorous even though it’s not extremely selective but I am not sure what will happen if it’s lottery based. Maybe kids will self select if they understand what the program entails but I could see many students leaving if they do not. It’s also more of an interdisciplinary humanities program with some communications classes, not exactly a “communications” program. The English/Social studies classes are cohosted and involve a lot of group projects that are pretty involved.

I don’t imagine that students from across the region will be interested in CAP if it’s less rigorous. Not good news for Blair.

[Anonymous]

An interest based program will not be rigorous