Coach conflict of interest (Club + HS Volleyball )

[Anonymous]

I am starting this thread for folks to discuss this conflict of interest that may be consequential taking into account that some of the coaches are with one foot in one boat (club coach) and the other foot in a different boat (HS team coach). I think naming high schools and coaches should not violate any norms as long as the discussion is factual and civil. Make sure you don't provide information that would identify your player - this might have unintended consequences.

[Anonymous]

How about just HS + club team?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about just HS + club team?

That's fine with me - everyone can decide how much information they are willing to share based on personal circumstances.

[Anonymous]

It happens in every sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It happens in every sport.

We are in the volleyball forum, so I hope people don't start discussing the rugby coaches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am starting this thread for folks to discuss this conflict of interest that may be consequential taking into account that some of the coaches are with one foot in one boat (club coach) and the other foot in a different boat (HS team coach). I think naming high schools and coaches should not violate any norms as long as the discussion is factual and civil. Make sure you don't provide information that would identify your player - this might have unintended consequences.

For the most part, being a HS and/or club volleyball coach is a second job for the coach. Both pay very little relative to the time involved and given the rise in popularity of volleyball, qualified coaches are a scarce resource. And because HS volleyball and club volleyball don’t overlap much by design, many qualified coaches will do both. I’m certain that there are HS coaches who favor players from their club and who perhaps give the benefit of the doubt to a player from their HS when choosing club teams, but I don’t know that it is a big enough issue to warrant drastic measures.

A good example of potential conflict of interest would be MVSA and Montgomery County public schools where there are tons of coaches and players that overlap. Even teams like Metro Travel teams that tend to pull players from a larger geographic area can have potential conflicts at private schools. Until a few years ago, the Flint Hill School in northern Virginia had a significant number of Metro Travel players and the coaches also coached for Metro. Georgetown Day School seems to be moving in that direction now, with coaches that coach for Metro and an increasing number of Metro Travel players.

I’ve seen discussions that there should be rules against this, but I don’t see how this would be practical unless there were many more coaches available. The reality is that there aren’t enough coaches to have a separate pool for HS teams and club teams. There is going to be overlap in many cases. With 50–100 girls trying out for 12-15 roster spots, even the most honest and objective HS coach (who also coaches club) is likely to face accusations of bias from disappointed players and their parents. And maybe there is bias in some cases, but I suspect that most of the time it’s people looking for a reason other than “my kid wasn’t good enough” to explain why they didn’t make a team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am starting this thread for folks to discuss this conflict of interest that may be consequential taking into account that some of the coaches are with one foot in one boat (club coach) and the other foot in a different boat (HS team coach). I think naming high schools and coaches should not violate any norms as long as the discussion is factual and civil. Make sure you don't provide information that would identify your player - this might have unintended consequences.

For the most part, being a HS and/or club volleyball coach is a second job for the coach. Both pay very little relative to the time involved and given the rise in popularity of volleyball, qualified coaches are a scarce resource. And because HS volleyball and club volleyball don’t overlap much by design, many qualified coaches will do both. I’m certain that there are HS coaches who favor players from their club and who perhaps give the benefit of the doubt to a player from their HS when choosing club teams, but I don’t know that it is a big enough issue to warrant drastic measures.

A good example of potential conflict of interest would be MVSA and Montgomery County public schools where there are tons of coaches and players that overlap. Even teams like Metro Travel teams that tend to pull players from a larger geographic area can have potential conflicts at private schools. Until a few years ago, the Flint Hill School in northern Virginia had a significant number of Metro Travel players and the coaches also coached for Metro. Georgetown Day School seems to be moving in that direction now, with coaches that coach for Metro and an increasing number of Metro Travel players.

I’ve seen discussions that there should be rules against this, but I don’t see how this would be practical unless there were many more coaches available. The reality is that there aren’t enough coaches to have a separate pool for HS teams and club teams. There is going to be overlap in many cases. With 50–100 girls trying out for 12-15 roster spots, even the most honest and objective HS coach (who also coaches club) is likely to face accusations of bias from disappointed players and their parents. And maybe there is bias in some cases, but I suspect that most of the time it’s people looking for a reason other than “my kid wasn’t good enough” to explain why they didn’t make a team.

I agree with many of the points you raised and I am sure many coaches do their best to be fair when they evaluate players at tryouts. I like most of the MVSA coaches I interacted with and I can tell that most of the MVSA players are better than my DD. I also agree that many parents overestimate their kids' skills and abilities and they become emotional when their kids are rejected. I personally wouldn't rant about my DD not getting a spot on varsity (which is dominated by MVSA players), especially if my DD's position is filled by better players. But too many concerns raised about a particular coach may suggest real bias. I started this thread to figure out how big the problem really is and whether anyone can find solutions to address it. I am not sure whether the schools can afford bringing an independent coach at the tryouts to alleviate bias concerns. Even assuming that bias can be completely eliminated during tryouts, it can perpetuate with court time.

[Anonymous]

There is a painful shortage of volleyball coaches in this area right now.

There is a painful shortage of referees.

When the shortage is this acute, the conflict disappears. These coaches don't have to compromise their standards to keep their positions or to attract paying players. There might be some unconscious bias but we will have to learn to live with that level of background favoritism if it exists

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a painful shortage of volleyball coaches in this area right now.

There is a painful shortage of referees.

When the shortage is this acute, the conflict disappears. These coaches don't have to compromise their standards to keep their positions or to attract paying players. There might be some unconscious bias but we will have to learn to live with that level of background favoritism if it exists

It works the other way around too. Some schools look the other way even though the coach is known for behavior like this because finding another coach is hard.

Certain clubs tend to encourage this type of activity and actively recruit coaches known to influence their HS players to come to their club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about just HS + club team?

Don’t do this. As others said, there is a painful shortages of coaches and the pay doesn’t match the hours. It’s right after tryouts and some parents are upset. We understand, but this isn’t the way to go about it.

It’s the same as if you want to start a list of which teachers tutor, but to badmouth it.

HS and club are at different times. It’s a second job.

[Anonymous]

15:58, my daughter did NOT make the club team where any of her HS coaches coached at least year, before you ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about just HS + club team?

Don’t do this. As others said, there is a painful shortages of coaches and the pay doesn’t match the hours. It’s right after tryouts and some parents are upset. We understand, but this isn’t the way to go about it.

It’s the same as if you want to start a list of which teachers tutor, but to badmouth it.

HS and club are at different times. It’s a second job.

While I agree that there shouldn't be names given and letting this cool down a bit is good idea, I'm not sure that the reason for that is "there's not enough coaches". And the fact that club coaching is a second job doesn't mean you can say any action taken at Job A is ok because Job B is separate.

Many other state and local athletic associations around the country have explicit rules in place to stop large conflicts of interests from happening. Inside CHRVA Delaware has explicit rules that no more than 5 returning HS volleyball players can be instructed by a coach. Read section 9.0 of the code at https://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/title14/1040. Those rules are in place to protect both the athlete and the coach. That rule isn't that you can't have more than 5 on your personal team -- its that you can't instruct more than 5 over the course of the offseason. This effectively prohibits high schools and clubs from becoming intertwined. The DC area is actually the outlier with regards to regulation here. Other more developed volleyball regions have had to deal directly with these type of conflict of interest issues long ago.

There are many examples of HS players in the DC metro area in both public and private schools being told by coaches that if they try out for a specific club don't bother coming back. Some coaches will send out lists of clubs to consider trying out for and leave off clubs that are directly competitive to and sometimes even better than the club they work at. Some will even ask player's teammates who they are trying out for with the intent of getting the teammate to stop them from doing it. Coaches will even ask players to go to a club clinic and report back on who was there.

The inverse of this happens as well. Good player comes into 9th grade at a good HS volleyball program. Coach already knows and/or coached an 8th grader at club. The club player they know sometimes gets preference over the one that doesn't play for them.

If you are a 14-17 year old girl who wants to play HS volleyball and your coach does something like that how would you react? You have no power in that situation. The coach controls your HS roster spot. What if you go to the AD or school administration and they look the other way because "We don't have another option for a coach." or because "We are winning"?. Neither excuses the behavior.