Premed undergrad and rigor?

[Anonymous]

It’s commonly said prestige does not matter, and most say cheapest option with highest GPA and MCAT you can. I get that logic.

I can also understand how high SAT/ACT led to prestigious undergrad schools which led to high MCAT and that’s the correlation to strong med school application success.

I could also see top schools covering more in-depth thus making MCAT prep easier or is it truly directional school orgo is same as T5 orgo and it truly does not matter?

[Anonymous]

We are in this right now.
My son is pre-med and his college counselor stressed how important it was to find a school he could get the major he wanted and be able to research. For instance, he is auto admit to UT Austin, but even though it is a great school overall, it is not great for pre-med due to huge class sizes, lack of faculty interaction, competition for research, etc. Do people go to medical school from UT Austin? Of course they do, but it is not the best path, imho. He has now gotten into a more prestigious school and we will pay the money, not only because it is a better fit for him at this time in his life, but it also because - if he succeeds at college like he did in high school - he has a lot more resources to get into med school.
Obviously a lot of factors here - really it comes down to the kid and what they need and what they want their next 4 years to look like...and then of course financial resources and being able to pay.
Take a look here https://texadmissions.com/blog/2023/7/27/applying-for-pre-med-to-ut-austin
We are not following that advice, but we did consider it.
We have another child who was pre-med (changed major for other reasons) at a large public university. There was limited access to volunteer opportunities, almost no research, difficult to interact one on one with professors due to no structures being in place to find mentors - again, people go to med school, but it is a huge uphill climb even for the ones with very good grades...and several we know had to take the mcat 2 or 3 times (maybe that is common - I don't know)...which seems to prove your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in this right now.
My son is pre-med and his college counselor stressed how important it was to find a school he could get the major he wanted and be able to research. For instance, he is auto admit to UT Austin, but even though it is a great school overall, it is not great for pre-med due to huge class sizes, lack of faculty interaction, competition for research, etc. Do people go to medical school from UT Austin? Of course they do, but it is not the best path, imho. He has now gotten into a more prestigious school and we will pay the money, not only because it is a better fit for him at this time in his life, but it also because - if he succeeds at college like he did in high school - he has a lot more resources to get into med school.
Obviously a lot of factors here - really it comes down to the kid and what they need and what they want their next 4 years to look like...and then of course financial resources and being able to pay.
Take a look here https://texadmissions.com/blog/2023/7/27/applying-for-pre-med-to-ut-austin
We are not following that advice, but we did consider it.
We have another child who was pre-med (changed major for other reasons) at a large public university. There was limited access to volunteer opportunities, almost no research, difficult to interact one on one with professors due to no structures being in place to find mentors - again, people go to med school, but it is a huge uphill climb even for the ones with very good grades...and several we know had to take the mcat 2 or 3 times (maybe that is common - I don't know)...which seems to prove your point.

I’ve wondered this too, all I hear is orgo is orgo.

Mine chose a prestigious school for a variety of reasons. They came in extremely well prepared and are working hard for A’s. I’ve heard from another that struggled in high school that they are supposedly breezing through with easy A’s at a regional school. I don’t ask, this is volunteered. It’s hard to imagine the classes are same, but that’s what seems to be preached.

[Anonymous]

How do you know if a school is good for premed?

[Anonymous]

Following

[Anonymous]

If you can find it, look for stats on what pecentage of the premeds who apply to medical school are eventually accepted. National average is 40%. Schools can manipulate these numbers by weeding out kids and counseling some not to apply, but it gives a reference point. Some schools like Harvard and Hopkins are amazing - they claim over 95% acceptance rate. If you go to a school with a 50-60% rate, like most big public universities, you need to be much higher in your class with top MCAT scores.

https://www.medschoolcoach.com/best-premed-schools/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s commonly said prestige does not matter, and most say cheapest option with highest GPA and MCAT you can. I get that logic.

I can also understand how high SAT/ACT led to prestigious undergrad schools which led to high MCAT and that’s the correlation to strong med school application success.

I could also see top schools covering more in-depth thus making MCAT prep easier or is it truly directional school orgo is same as T5 orgo and it truly does not matter?

I am part-owner of a med school admissions consultant group, all docs from UVa and above undergrads, all MD schools in the top75 some T5, yet we mentor everyone even a current pharmD student who started at a no name undergrad. There are very large differences in the course content of the basic premed courses, including orgo, at non-flagship state schools (ie well below traditional T50)/lesser known lacs and T20/T10 LACs. Top students who have the basic smarts to score above 512 on the mcat have to study significantly more (9-12 months)than a similar student at a T20 or 30 (2-3 months) to be hitting goal scores.
“Similar” is based on SAT(1400 is a good baseline score indicating a 512 is possible with study) and high school prep(stem AP experience and scoring more 5s than 4s in those areas).
Additionally students from the much lower ranked schools have often taken the wrong classes sometimes due to lack of premed advising and other times due to poor advice. We recommend masters in sciences for many, and waiting on mcat until the background is better.

For the parents who often reach out before undergrad is chosen, we say pick the most rigorous school (highest academic reputation& has premed advising) where the kid has a good chance to be above the mean in stem classes. For some that is VCU, for others that is William&Mary/UVa, for others they can go to ivies and have no trouble being top half.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in this right now.
My son is pre-med and his college counselor stressed how important it was to find a school he could get the major he wanted and be able to research. For instance, he is auto admit to UT Austin, but even though it is a great school overall, it is not great for pre-med due to huge class sizes, lack of faculty interaction, competition for research, etc. Do people go to medical school from UT Austin? Of course they do, but it is not the best path, imho. He has now gotten into a more prestigious school and we will pay the money, not only because it is a better fit for him at this time in his life, but it also because - if he succeeds at college like he did in high school - he has a lot more resources to get into med school.
Obviously a lot of factors here - really it comes down to the kid and what they need and what they want their next 4 years to look like...and then of course financial resources and being able to pay.
Take a look here https://texadmissions.com/blog/2023/7/27/applying-for-pre-med-to-ut-austin
We are not following that advice, but we did consider it.
We have another child who was pre-med (changed major for other reasons) at a large public university. There was limited access to volunteer opportunities, almost no research, difficult to interact one on one with professors due to no structures being in place to find mentors - again, people go to med school, but it is a huge uphill climb even for the ones with very good grades...and several we know had to take the mcat 2 or 3 times (maybe that is common - I don't know)...which seems to prove your point.

Complete agreement with one who graduated from a flagship public anf the other one at a T10 private. Good decision

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in this right now.
My son is pre-med and his college counselor stressed how important it was to find a school he could get the major he wanted and be able to research. For instance, he is auto admit to UT Austin, but even though it is a great school overall, it is not great for pre-med due to huge class sizes, lack of faculty interaction, competition for research, etc. Do people go to medical school from UT Austin? Of course they do, but it is not the best path, imho. He has now gotten into a more prestigious school and we will pay the money, not only because it is a better fit for him at this time in his life, but it also because - if he succeeds at college like he did in high school - he has a lot more resources to get into med school.
Obviously a lot of factors here - really it comes down to the kid and what they need and what they want their next 4 years to look like...and then of course financial resources and being able to pay.
Take a look here https://texadmissions.com/blog/2023/7/27/applying-for-pre-med-to-ut-austin
We are not following that advice, but we did consider it.
We have another child who was pre-med (changed major for other reasons) at a large public university. There was limited access to volunteer opportunities, almost no research, difficult to interact one on one with professors due to no structures being in place to find mentors - again, people go to med school, but it is a huge uphill climb even for the ones with very good grades...and several we know had to take the mcat 2 or 3 times (maybe that is common - I don't know)...which seems to prove your point.

That is problematic during applications. They look at all scores. Also, no extra time. Many do not realize that and have been getting extra time on all exams since high school. It can be a rude awakening to test with time pressure and be compared to students who have been testing under time pressure for years and have learned from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s commonly said prestige does not matter, and most say cheapest option with highest GPA and MCAT you can. I get that logic.

I can also understand how high SAT/ACT led to prestigious undergrad schools which led to high MCAT and that’s the correlation to strong med school application success.

I could also see top schools covering more in-depth thus making MCAT prep easier or is it truly directional school orgo is same as T5 orgo and it truly does not matter?

I am part-owner of a med school admissions consultant group, all docs from UVa and above undergrads, all MD schools in the top75 some T5, yet we mentor everyone even a current pharmD student who started at a no name undergrad. There are very large differences in the course content of the basic premed courses, including orgo, at non-flagship state schools (ie well below traditional T50)/lesser known lacs and T20/T10 LACs. Top students who have the basic smarts to score above 512 on the mcat have to study significantly more (9-12 months)than a similar student at a T20 or 30 (2-3 months) to be hitting goal scores.
“Similar” is based on SAT(1400 is a good baseline score indicating a 512 is possible with study) and high school prep(stem AP experience and scoring more 5s than 4s in those areas).
Additionally students from the much lower ranked schools have often taken the wrong classes sometimes due to lack of premed advising and other times due to poor advice. We recommend masters in sciences for many, and waiting on mcat until the background is better.

For the parents who often reach out before undergrad is chosen, we say pick the most rigorous school (highest academic reputation& has premed advising) where the kid has a good chance to be above the mean in stem classes. For some that is VCU, for others that is William&Mary/UVa, for others they can go to ivies and have no trouble being top half.

Thank you for sharing. I was intentionally vague in my post as I didn’t want to sway the conversation too much. Everything you said is what makes complete sense to me. It’s interesting that this other consultant group seems to preach the opposite. I do like that they encourage a path for all, even if it looks a little different, but the blanket statement that all of these schools and courses are the same just never made sense to me.

[Anonymous]

The other retort I read a lot is do you know where your doctor went to undergrad which makes me laugh, when I’m comparing I do look. Am I really that unusual?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The other retort I read a lot is do you know where your doctor went to undergrad which makes me laugh, when I’m comparing I do look. Am I really that unusual?

No i have patients who tell me they picked me because of my undergrad and med school degrees. They mention both. Both are T10/T5

[Anonymous]

I can also understand how high SAT/ACT led to prestigious undergrad schools which led to high MCAT

There’s is a correlation / causation issue here. Prestige undergrad did not necessarily “lead to” high MCAT.

“Smart kid” is the cause of the high SAT. Smart kid who attends “less prestigious” undergrad will still get high MCAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other retort I read a lot is do you know where your doctor went to undergrad which makes me laugh, when I’m comparing I do look. Am I really that unusual?

No i have patients who tell me they picked me because of my undergrad and med school degrees. They mention both. Both are T10/T5

Ok but 99+% of patients in the country don’t know or care where their doc went to school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other retort I read a lot is do you know where your doctor went to undergrad which makes me laugh, when I’m comparing I do look. Am I really that unusual?

No i have patients who tell me they picked me because of my undergrad and med school degrees. They mention both. Both are T10/T5

Ok but 99+% of patients in the country don’t know or care where their doc went to school.

I look, spouse does not. Guessing you’re correct that majority don’t, but not sure it’s nearly that high.