How to compare the GRE and the LSAT

[Anonymous]

Several law schools now accept the GRE as a substitute for the LSAT. Are the pools of GRE and LSAT takers comparable in terms of intellectual ability?

My guess is the GRE group is higher. Why? Because it includes those who plan to pursue PhDs in philosophy, economics, physics, chemistry, electrical engineering, mathematics. The GRE includes verbal and quantitative sections, and I think it's reasonable to assume that those aspiring STEM PhD's are going to score better than LSAT takers. The verbal score would probably be a better predictor of law school performance. Not sure if a 98th percentile verbal score is more impressive than a 98th percentile LSAT score.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

The LSAT is more difficult than the GRE for most--at least according to those planning to attend law school.(Based on many whom I know who have taken both tests.)

The GRE is more flexible because it can be a substitute for both the LSAT and the GMAT (MBA programs).

Disagree with the OP's thought that those headed for PhD programs are more intellectual or more intellient than those headed to law school.

[Anonymous]

PhD candidates probably just enjoy being a student whereas future attorneys are motivated by tackling issues in the real world while making a nice income (more motivated by money than by avoiding the real world by remaking a lifelong student/teacher.)

[Anonymous]

The verbal score would probably be a better predictor of law school performance

Law involves a lot more logic than many people realize. It is far from mere facility with language.

I'm not sure what the current state of the LSAT is as far as how much logic is incorporated. I understand it has changed in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The LSAT is more difficult than the GRE for most--at least according to those planning to attend law school.(Based on many whom I know who have taken both tests.)

The GRE is more flexible because it can be a substitute for both the LSAT and the GMAT (MBA programs).

Disagree with the OP's thought that those headed for PhD programs are more intellectual or more intellient than those headed to law school.

Pretty sure the average PhD aspirant in STEM, economics or philosophy has a higher level of intellectual ability than the average aspiring lawyer.

That doesn't mean there aren't lots of bright lawyers of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The LSAT is more difficult than the GRE for most--at least according to those planning to attend law school.(Based on many whom I know who have taken both tests.)

The GRE is more flexible because it can be a substitute for both the LSAT and the GMAT (MBA programs).

Disagree with the OP's thought that those headed for PhD programs are more intellectual or more intellient than those headed to law school.

Pretty sure the average PhD aspirant in STEM, economics or philosophy has a higher level of intellectual ability than the average aspiring lawyer.

That doesn't mean there aren't lots of bright lawyers of course.

A silly assertion. PhD students at less than top-tier universities probably have no more intellectual ability than attorneys attending less than top-tier law schools, and less than those law students at T14 law schools. Similarly, law students at T14 law schools are undoubtedly as bright as students in other disciplines at top universities; they have just chosen a different career trajectory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The LSAT is more difficult than the GRE for most--at least according to those planning to attend law school.(Based on many whom I know who have taken both tests.)

The GRE is more flexible because it can be a substitute for both the LSAT and the GMAT (MBA programs).

Disagree with the OP's thought that those headed for PhD programs are more intellectual or more intellient than those headed to law school.

Pretty sure the average PhD aspirant in STEM, economics or philosophy has a higher level of intellectual ability than the average aspiring lawyer.

That doesn't mean there aren't lots of bright lawyers of course.

A silly assertion. PhD students at less than top-tier universities probably have no more intellectual ability than attorneys attending less than top-tier law schools, and less than those law students at T14 law schools. Similarly, law students at T14 law schools are undoubtedly as bright as students in other disciplines at top universities; they have just chosen a different career trajectory.

You are avoiding your original claim, which is comparing law students to PhD students. Which group do you think is more intellectual: Yale Law Students or Yale Philosophy PhD students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PhD candidates probably just enjoy being a student whereas future attorneys are motivated by tackling issues in the real world while making a nice income (more motivated by money than by avoiding the real world by remaking a lifelong student/teacher.)

This is incredibly demeaning to those who devote their life to the pursuit of knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The LSAT is more difficult than the GRE for most--at least according to those planning to attend law school.(Based on many whom I know who have taken both tests.)

The GRE is more flexible because it can be a substitute for both the LSAT and the GMAT (MBA programs).

Disagree with the OP's thought that those headed for PhD programs are more intellectual or more intellient than those headed to law school.

Pretty sure the average PhD aspirant in STEM, economics or philosophy has a higher level of intellectual ability than the average aspiring lawyer.

That doesn't mean there aren't lots of bright lawyers of course.

A silly assertion. PhD students at less than top-tier universities probably have no more intellectual ability than attorneys attending less than top-tier law schools, and less than those law students at T14 law schools. Similarly, law students at T14 law schools are undoubtedly as bright as students in other disciplines at top universities; they have just chosen a different career trajectory.

You are avoiding your original claim, which is comparing law students to PhD students. Which group do you think is more intellectual: Yale Law Students or Yale Philosophy PhD students?

You chose the one law school in the country that behaves more like a humanities graduate program than a professional program.

What's your problem with law students, that said? Plenty of smart, intellectual people go to law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PhD candidates probably just enjoy being a student whereas future attorneys are motivated by tackling issues in the real world while making a nice income (more motivated by money than by avoiding the real world by remaking a lifelong student/teacher.)

This is incredibly demeaning to those who devote their life to the pursuit of knowledge.

No, it is not.

[Anonymous]

I am a lawyer and before law school I taught LSAT and SAT for Kaplan (although not GRE).

This allowing of law students to submit a GRE score doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The LSAT tests (and does a pretty good job of testing) how much any given test taker "thinks like a lawyer." The GRE does not test that.

Many who score very high on the LSAT do not score anywhere near as well on the GRE (I'm one of those people. I scored 97th percentile on the LSAT and had a high-average score on the GRE; I found law school exams, the bar exam, and practicing -- at least the intellectual part of it -- pretty easy). And many score very well on the GRE and poorly on the LSAT.

OP wonders about GRE test takers and LSAT takers "in terms of intellectual ability." The strengths and weaknesses any person with strong intellectual ability has can vary a great deal. I can do any logic puzzle you give me with speed and really enjoy it (although those are gone from the lsat now), but I can't remember how to do any geometry and would not have the patience to re-learn it. Bottom line is that people with plenty of "intellectual ability" have different strengths and may perform very differently on these two tests -- which are quite different.

The standard thing that people say is that the LSAT is much harder than the GRE. Not at all true for many people who naturally think in a highly analytical way. But for those who don't, for those who really don't enjoy logic, the LSAT can be much harder than the GRE. It just kind of depends on what kind of "intellectual ability" one has.

So I think GRE and LSAT are apple/orange, and if I were a dean at a law school I wouldn't accept the GRE in lieu of the LSAT.

And it should go without saying, but I'll say it, but there are plenty of extremely smart people who will bomb both -- so GRE and LSAT scores are no proxy for intelligence. Just felt the need to throw that reminder in here.

[Anonymous]

...and these extremely smart people who bomb the LSAT are out of luck in terms of top law schools, with extremely rare exceptions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:...and these extremely smart people who bomb the LSAT are out of luck in terms of top law schools, with extremely rare exceptions.

Correct. And I'd argue that perhaps another career might be best for them. Although maybe not, not all lawyers have to perform top-level analysis in complex cases everyday. But for those jobs, you really don't need HLS.

[Anonymous]

This was decades ago, but I took both and LSAT really improved the reasoning component of GRE test and put me in 99th percentile for that part and really helped me to get to where I wanted to go.

[Anonymous]

FWIW aspiring law students score just slightly below those who wish to do graduate work in political science on the GRE.

https://www.ets.org/pdfs/gre/gre-guide-table-4b.pdf

Of course the minority that opts for the GRE is likely atypical. They may be considering doing a Ph.D. as well and submit their scores to both graduate programs and law schools.