AP courses a scam?

[Anonymous]

The two classes DS has struggled the most with as a freshman in college are both courses where he didn't have to take the pre-req due to receiving 5s on the AP tests.

Anyone else have kids who had similar issues?

DS took 5 total AP courses and received 4 or 5 on each exam. Only two were accepted by his college due to his chosen major.

The stars will have to align for him when he takes his final this week for him to manage to pull a B in one course. He is getting a C in the other course, which will be his first C ever as a final grade. If he doesn't get a B in the one course, he will have to retake it. His major doesn't allow for a C final grade in certain courses that are mandatory for the major.

[Anonymous]

I'm also curious about this -- my DD's high school requires APs but as far as I can tell, they teach to the test. Like, "you need to have a couple of little anecdotes" to get from a 4 to a 5 on APUSH or something (I'm sure I'm getting the terminology wrong). We used to carpool with a bunch of kids taking AP Spanish and I used to try to chat with them in Spanish. They couldn't formulate a response... ever.

She'll be in a similar situation as your child -- testing out of the prereq, but not getting credit for the class (if I correctly interpreted what you said). She's hoping to get a 5 on Macro/Micro this month so she can take a higher level econ class, but it really won't buy her anything. And we wonder if her current econ class will have prepared her for econ at a higher level -- I'll be kind of surprised if it does.

[Anonymous]

OP, this happened to me. I placed out of Calc I in college bc of AP credit, and then felt lost in Calc II, III, and Lin Alg/Diff Eq. I presume it's bc I wasn't taught some of the foundation of the Calc I college class.

If I had to go back in time, I would have only used AP credits to get out of classes not related to my major.

[Anonymous]

Scam is a loaded word. Are they equivalent to a college level class? Depends on the college. I think it is better to take them for the rigor (AP is much tougher than gen ED or honors) than for skipping classes in college.

Ours took a bunch of APs but is retaking the classes at the college level for things in his field (biology, chemistry, physics) even though he could have placed out. Felt that the AP classes prepared him well but not sure it would have been wise to skip the classes in college. Some of the material is different and it can't hurt to have a good foundation in the core subjects.

[Anonymous]

Agree with 13:35.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of variables -- including teacher quality. My kid has a garbage AP Lit teacher. I'll be shocked if she "passes." So in this case, it's a scam, but most of my kids' AP classes have been pretty good.

[Anonymous]

If the C is in a weed out course, then it is actually a very good grade and means he knows the material.

[Anonymous]

It's a well-known fact that AP courses are taken to demonstrate high academic capabilities compared to one's classmates, and thus secure the most selective college admissions possible.

Once safely ensconced in that college, the student can decide to use the credits they've gained and skip the introductory classes, or repeat an introductory class. My kid skipped, and he's had no trouble so far.

But these are two separate actions, with very different goals, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, this happened to me. I placed out of Calc I in college bc of AP credit, and then felt lost in Calc II, III, and Lin Alg/Diff Eq. I presume it's bc I wasn't taught some of the foundation of the Calc I college class.

If I had to go back in time, I would have only used AP credits to get out of classes not related to my major.

This exact situation for me, too.

My kid will take Calc AB or BC in 12th, but even though DC is leaning toward the idea of being a math major in college, will likely retake the college Calc sequence regardless of AP result. We’ve heard a lot of anecdotes about kids struggling when they place out of a course.

That said, I don’t think APs are a scam. As another pp noted, I just see them as the top-level rigor in whatever subject for HS, rather than as a replacement for a college class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The two classes DS has struggled the most with as a freshman in college are both courses where he didn't have to take the pre-req due to receiving 5s on the AP tests.

Anyone else have kids who had similar issues?

DS took 5 total AP courses and received 4 or 5 on each exam. Only two were accepted by his college due to his chosen major.

The stars will have to align for him when he takes his final this week for him to manage to pull a B in one course. He is getting a C in the other course, which will be his first C ever as a final grade. If he doesn't get a B in the one course, he will have to retake it. His major doesn't allow for a C final grade in certain courses that are mandatory for the major.

Well, duh. They're college curricula but taught by high school teachers.

[Anonymous]

Our kid took AP credit for Calc 1&2, and did just fine in Calc 3 and Calc 4 (diff eq/whatever you want to call it in the eng sequence). Got A and B+ (more to do with the prof than any lack of knowledge prior).
Did same for AP Chem. Went straight to Orgo for Freshman with AP/IB credit. That was a bit more struggle, but I suspect they'd have struggled in Orgo anyhow (and the main issue was kids already having taken Orgo in HS and retaking that were killing the curve---88 avg on a midterm in Orgo is NOT normal---in reg Orgo it's typically 50/55 at my kid's school).

So your kid needs to evaluate if they are ready to take credit and move on, or if they need more foundation (so if not 100% certain with calc and need for major, maybe you retake). But then again, Calc 2 is known for being a weed out killer class as well, so many recommend taking credit and going into Calc 3

[Anonymous]

I'm a college professor. The AP course in my field requires a lot of things that the equivalent college course does not, but those AP "extras" won't actually make you better at what the college course requires, and may in fact dilute the needed elements in favor of the unneeded ones. College courses tend to be much more specific, even compartmentalized, than high-school ones, even APs, are. And students who have done well in AP and feel like they know what to expect in college-level work also are going to sense a difference when college courses go twice as fast and meet almost half as often. There's a lot less time to discuss, digest, process, and practice in a college course than there is in its AP "equivalent."

So is AP a scam? No - it includes high-quality syllabi and strong expectations, and in the hands of great teachers it can produce really outstanding experiences. The actual rigor of an AP course may be higher than its college "equivalent" in certain situations, too. But remember that "equivalent" doesn't mean "identical" or even necessarily "interchangeable."

Short version: I'm not surprised when a former AP student is surprised at college. We should do a better job of preparing our HS upperclassmen, perhaps even just switching courses to college pace for a week to let them feel it out on the ground.

[Anonymous]

I never assumed that the kids should use them to advance in level as freshman in college. Bad idea. Ok to use the APs as credit for gen education requirements so they can take more interesting electives, but they should be taking calc and physics and chem etc at college at the entry levels even if they took AP versions in high school.

[Anonymous]

The A students work for the B students, the C students own the company, and the dropouts invented the product the company makes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The A students work for the B students, the C students own the company, and the dropouts invented the product the company makes.

I've seen this elsewhere on DCUM but usually in a context where it makes a modicum of sense.