I simply cannot wrap my head around there being a supernatural being

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Really? Haven't looked up Borg yet, but this is from the Wikipedia article on Crossan: "His work is controversial, portraying the Second Coming as a late corruption of Jesus' message and saying that Jesus' divinity is metaphorical.[2]" Ehrman is the most scholarly and credible of all of these.

So you rely on Wikipedia and ignore how controversial Ehrman’s theories are (not to mention how controversial Ehrman’s methods are). That says all we need to know about your standards.

ALL these writers are controversial. Some have a more solid foundation than Ehrman.

OK, just name a couple of the "hundreds" of scholars that have criticized him and on what basis; and name one or two of his "controversial theories" and methods.

We'll see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Really? Haven't looked up Borg yet, but this is from the Wikipedia article on Crossan: "His work is controversial, portraying the Second Coming as a late corruption of Jesus' message and saying that Jesus' divinity is metaphorical.[2]" Ehrman is the most scholarly and credible of all of these.

So you rely on Wikipedia and ignore how controversial Ehrman’s theories are (not to mention how controversial Ehrman’s methods are). That says all we need to know about your standards.

ALL these writers are controversial. Some have a more solid foundation than Ehrman.

OK, just name a couple of the "hundreds" of scholars that have criticized him and on what basis; and name one or two of his "controversial theories" and methods.

We'll see.

It’s all out there for anyone who can google. Obviously you’re sitting at Ehrman’s feet. Just want to warn off anyone reading your post, and let them know that more scholarly alternative exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

Why did he make such a place, then? He could have let bad christians or non-believers just cease to exist when they die. Instead he created a fiery hell for them to go to for eternity.

I don’t think a lot of Christians believe in a firery Hell. If anything, it is a cold place away from Gods love.

How do you know this?

Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose.

[Anonymous]

"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Really? Haven't looked up Borg yet, but this is from the Wikipedia article on Crossan: "His work is controversial, portraying the Second Coming as a late corruption of Jesus' message and saying that Jesus' divinity is metaphorical.[2]" Ehrman is the most scholarly and credible of all of these.

So you rely on Wikipedia and ignore how controversial Ehrman’s theories are (not to mention how controversial Ehrman’s methods are). That says all we need to know about your standards.

ALL these writers are controversial. Some have a more solid foundation than Ehrman.

OK, just name a couple of the "hundreds" of scholars that have criticized him and on what basis; and name one or two of his "controversial theories" and methods.

We'll see.

It’s all out there for anyone who can google. Obviously you’re sitting at Ehrman’s feet. Just want to warn off anyone reading your post, and let them know that more scholarly alternative exist.

O.k., you got nuthin.' I get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

As it pretty much has.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

So Dante didn’t just write Inferno. The Divine Comedy has three parts. If you just read Inferno, it does look like God strikes people down when they don’t obey.
But if you read Pergatorio and Paradiso, you find people who have committed the same sins as those in Hell, but they have repented and asked God for forgiveness, and so they were saved.

And there are consequences for not accepting God, but they are the natural consequences of not being with God and being away from God.

And as far as preparing your soul...If you believe in eternal life, then at the very least, whether you believe in God or not, you are going to have to live with yourself for all eternity. So you should make yourself into someone you want to spend time with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

So Dante didn’t just write Inferno. The Divine Comedy has three parts. If you just read Inferno, it does look like God strikes people down when they don’t obey.
But if you read Pergatorio and Paradiso, you find people who have committed the same sins as those in Hell, but they have repented and asked God for forgiveness, and so they were saved.

And there are consequences for not accepting God, but they are the natural consequences of not being with God and being away from God.

And as far as preparing your soul...If you believe in eternal life, then at the very least, whether you believe in God or not, you are going to have to live with yourself for all eternity. So you should make yourself into someone you want to spend time with.

All of that supports my point. In order to escape Hell, you have to ask God for forgiveness -- God controls your fate.

Your last point is transparently an effort to cast this as generalizable to all religions, but it's really not. Yes, I believe in eternal life for souls, but I do not believe in a God that damns souls who misbehave to hell. I'm not totally sure what the afterlife looks like, but I certainly don't believe that the afterlife is controlled by a single deity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

So Dante didn’t just write Inferno. The Divine Comedy has three parts. If you just read Inferno, it does look like God strikes people down when they don’t obey.
But if you read Pergatorio and Paradiso, you find people who have committed the same sins as those in Hell, but they have repented and asked God for forgiveness, and so they were saved.

And there are consequences for not accepting God, but they are the natural consequences of not being with God and being away from God.

And as far as preparing your soul...If you believe in eternal life, then at the very least, whether you believe in God or not, you are going to have to live with yourself for all eternity. So you should make yourself into someone you want to spend time with.

All of that supports my point. In order to escape Hell, you have to ask God for forgiveness -- God controls your fate.

Your last point is transparently an effort to cast this as generalizable to all religions, but it's really not. Yes, I believe in eternal life for souls, but I do not believe in a God that damns souls who misbehave to hell. I'm not totally sure what the afterlife looks like, but I certainly don't believe that the afterlife is controlled by a single deity.

DP. You’re treating Dante as if he represents all Christians. Dante was a 14th century Catholic. Many Christians today do not believe in hell. Or they believe God doesn’t punish people who may not accept him but do live a good life.

[Anonymous]

"DP. You’re treating Dante as if he represents all Christians. Dante was a 14th century Catholic. Many Christians today do not believe in hell. Or they believe God doesn’t punish people who may not accept him but do live a good life."

Most Christians don't believe in hell? That's news to me. So Christianity has suddenly decided that there are no repercussions to not accepting Jesus, as long as you're a good person? So we can just throw out the whole "you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior" thing? That's not important anymore to what happens to your soul on Judgment Day?

What happened to salvation by faith? There's no understanding of salvation by works alone, as far as I know.

Salvation is either by faith, or by faith + works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

So Dante didn’t just write Inferno. The Divine Comedy has three parts. If you just read Inferno, it does look like God strikes people down when they don’t obey.
But if you read Pergatorio and Paradiso, you find people who have committed the same sins as those in Hell, but they have repented and asked God for forgiveness, and so they were saved.

And there are consequences for not accepting God, but they are the natural consequences of not being with God and being away from God.

And as far as preparing your soul...If you believe in eternal life, then at the very least, whether you believe in God or not, you are going to have to live with yourself for all eternity. So you should make yourself into someone you want to spend time with.

All of that supports my point. In order to escape Hell, you have to ask God for forgiveness -- God controls your fate.

Your last point is transparently an effort to cast this as generalizable to all religions, but it's really not. Yes, I believe in eternal life for souls, but I do not believe in a God that damns souls who misbehave to hell. I'm not totally sure what the afterlife looks like, but I certainly don't believe that the afterlife is controlled by a single deity.

You believe based on what? I'm guessing it just feels right to you -- and the whole Christian thing feels wrong. It also feels wrong to people who don't believe in an afterlife or a supreme being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Just reading Christian authors, Dante, CS Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, for my Catholic mom book group.
None of them seem to talk this way about Hell, and when they do it appears pretty clearly metaphorical.

Plus there are tons of parables in the Bible about God finding his lost sheep, about God accepting those who have left with open arms, etc. it really doesn’t seem to me that a lot of Christian adults believe that God is trying to cast everyone who turns away from Him into a fire pit that He creates for this purpose."

That's a nice way of trying to make Christianity sound a lot more inclusive than it actually is.

If God accepts everyone, then what's the motivation for accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? What does salvation mean in this context? What happens on Judgment Day? What's the judgment that happens?

Do you see how your description of Christianity leaves a lot of fundamental questions in your religion unanswered?

A critical part of Christianity is preparing one's soul for Judgment Day. If I do nothing to accept Jesus, what happens to me on Judgment Day? Clearly something different than what happens to you, right?

Dante’s hell was fiery in the bottom circles. (As I recall—it’s been a few years since I read The Inferno.) The uppermost circles, though, were more about the punishment fitting the crime (some people were constantly running, I forget what they did, and if I remember correctly, the embezzlers were stuck in pottery “pockets,” etc). The top circle was just not having hope (of redemption). Then again, nobody takes Dante’s circles literally, and probably didn’t in his day, either.

Right, but this whole "oh God is loving to everyone" thing that I hear from a lot of Christians is a bunch of BS, honestly. It's an excuse to make their religion seem totally inclusive, when it's anything but that.

The Christian God isn't loving to everyone -- he strikes people down and yes, he's supposedly responsible for hell because he created everything. Just like he created heaven, he created hell too. There are repercussions for not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. There have to be -- otherwise, the entire logic of the religion falls apart.

So Dante didn’t just write Inferno. The Divine Comedy has three parts. If you just read Inferno, it does look like God strikes people down when they don’t obey.
But if you read Pergatorio and Paradiso, you find people who have committed the same sins as those in Hell, but they have repented and asked God for forgiveness, and so they were saved.

And there are consequences for not accepting God, but they are the natural consequences of not being with God and being away from God.

And as far as preparing your soul...If you believe in eternal life, then at the very least, whether you believe in God or not, you are going to have to live with yourself for all eternity. So you should make yourself into someone you want to spend time with.

All of that supports my point. In order to escape Hell, you have to ask God for forgiveness -- God controls your fate.

Your last point is transparently an effort to cast this as generalizable to all religions, but it's really not. Yes, I believe in eternal life for souls, but I do not believe in a God that damns souls who misbehave to hell. I'm not totally sure what the afterlife looks like, but I certainly don't believe that the afterlife is controlled by a single deity.

It’s not transparently anything. It’s taken from CS Lewis “Mere Christianity.”

I have no idea what makes you think Christians believe themselves to be some exclusive group. If anything, all evidence points the opposite direction.
But I feel like you are like a teenager who has decided that he hates his loving parents and wants to be on his own. And now you are asking why, when you chose to live on your own and cut off all contact with your mother and father, you find yourself living on your own without their daily presence. I don’t know how to answer you there. If you choose not to be with God, then you aren’t with God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"DP. You’re treating Dante as if he represents all Christians. Dante was a 14th century Catholic. Many Christians today do not believe in hell. Or they believe God doesn’t punish people who may not accept him but do live a good life."

Most Christians don't believe in hell? That's news to me. So Christianity has suddenly decided that there are no repercussions to not accepting Jesus, as long as you're a good person? So we can just throw out the whole "you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior" thing? That's not important anymore to what happens to your soul on Judgment Day?

What happened to salvation by faith? There's no understanding of salvation by works alone, as far as I know.

Salvation is either by faith, or by faith + works.

I am Catholic. We certainly believe in Hell, but believe that Judas is the only person we know is certainly there.

I am not sure about the rest of it.