To the parents in "good schools"

[Anonymous]

In a big school system with standardized curriculum, the academic aptitude and achievement levels of the kids matters much more than the enthusiasm of the teachers. And the better schools tend to have happier teachers with longer tenure, anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a big school system with standardized curriculum, the academic aptitude and achievement levels of the kids matters much more than the enthusiasm of the teachers. And the better schools tend to have happier teachers with longer tenure, anyway.

Doesn’t sound like OP is happier.

[Anonymous]

Students graduating from FCPS are not very bright.

There's too much emphasis placed on sports and not enough on quality comprehensive instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I am happy to see the discussion and heartened. I know my experience isn't universal. When I worked in a Title I school, we had a very good admin team. They supported us, but we had to step up as well. We couldn't just say well these kids are so far behind. We had to do better. I loved it and it's an awesome school. Even now.

My current school has a fantastic parent community. People recommend it. It's an expensive area to live in (hell, we don't live in the zone, my kids are in a different FCPS pyramid). What my frustration is that there is this sort of sense of complacency. Here is an example. In our classrooms kids run through stations. We had a teacher in a team meeting mention that a kid was not completing the work. She kept saying she was running her small groups and doing assessments. She e-mailed mom and dad and she expected they'd talk to the kid.

I piped in and pointed out that her e-mail (which basically said Larla isn't completing her work because she's thinking) isn't helpful. I offered some tools I use to keep kids engaged while I am going assessments. The teacher pointed out the kid was two grades above level on I-ready and being a "bit spacey" isn't a big deal in her room. Once she mentioned the I-ready scores, and mentioned the kid's DRA, the admin was like let's move on. So we did.

I smiled. I kept things nice. But inside, I kind of died for that kid. Why IS she thinking so much?

This is the thing. The kids, they are great. But they deserve much, much more.

OP, I read the whole thread and your example above makes the most sense to me. You sound like a good teacher, fwiw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students graduating from FCPS are not very bright.

There's too much emphasis placed on sports and not enough on quality comprehensive instruction.

There are nowhere near as many bright, accomplished students graduating from any other school system or jurisdiction in the region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I am happy to see the discussion and heartened. I know my experience isn't universal. When I worked in a Title I school, we had a very good admin team. They supported us, but we had to step up as well. We couldn't just say well these kids are so far behind. We had to do better. I loved it and it's an awesome school. Even now.

My current school has a fantastic parent community. People recommend it. It's an expensive area to live in (hell, we don't live in the zone, my kids are in a different FCPS pyramid). What my frustration is that there is this sort of sense of complacency. Here is an example. In our classrooms kids run through stations. We had a teacher in a team meeting mention that a kid was not completing the work. She kept saying she was running her small groups and doing assessments. She e-mailed mom and dad and she expected they'd talk to the kid.

I piped in and pointed out that her e-mail (which basically said Larla isn't completing her work because she's thinking) isn't helpful. I offered some tools I use to keep kids engaged while I am going assessments. The teacher pointed out the kid was two grades above level on I-ready and being a "bit spacey" isn't a big deal in her room. Once she mentioned the I-ready scores, and mentioned the kid's DRA, the admin was like let's move on. So we did.

I smiled. I kept things nice. But inside, I kind of died for that kid. Why IS she thinking so much?

This is the thing. The kids, they are great. But they deserve much, much more.

OP, I read the whole thread and your example above makes the most sense to me. You sound like a good teacher, fwiw.

To the parent on the other end of this email, also, it sounds like the classroom teacher wants me to somehow fix her teaching problem. I don't know what to do with an email like that, either. I'll talk to my child, who will say she's bored with the material and her teacher said that since she's two levels up it doesn't matter anyway, and I'll tell her just to get it done.

But really, I'll be thinking, can't you set her up with a project she can do at her own level, maybe do some research, or learn about some specialized something? There's nothing I hate more about public school than the amount of time my kids spend doing literally nothing productive just to fill up time. They are curious kids who like to learn. They would be thrilled to be given another challenge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

the overall environment at the top pyramid is simply better, especially the work ethic of the students and the range of extra-curricular activities.

OP, I feel for you. I was you. I spent 10 years in a high poverty school, had kids, went to a high performing school because I, too, had kids and needed my life back. Sweetie and I say this nicely, but you just need to coast and enjoy your own kids. You can go back when they are older. I did. I love my high poverty, high ESOL elementary school. I am ready to be more of a teacher and less of a conduit.

Everything you said is true. But these parents don't care. Seriously. I mean, some of them might, but the quote above and high passing SOL test scores really is the entire key to parents calling a school "good." They don't care how this occurs. They'll supplement, so let them. Send home worksheets. Hell, I remember the day when my kids weren't getting a math concept. I tried to teach it and then basically said to the parents you all need to make sure your kids know this concept. It's an important standard, we test it and if their kids can't do it, it might impact their SOL performance. I did this with the blessing and support of my admin. And you know what? These parents got tutors, supplemented and everyone passed. I didn't have to do the heavy lifting because no one expects it. They want the cohort of kids. They want to avoid ESOL or high poverty issues. They want peers with college educated parents where college is an expectation. They want the extras raised by a well-funded PTA.

But they don't care, OP. Hope tomorrow is better, dear.

Clearly this is what parents prefer. But does research support the notion that it's truly better? Are the kids and the extracurriculars really more important than the teaching? Maybe at the high school level but in elementary school? Control for SES and what's the outcome?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

the overall environment at the top pyramid is simply better, especially the work ethic of the students and the range of extra-curricular activities.

OP, I feel for you. I was you. I spent 10 years in a high poverty school, had kids, went to a high performing school because I, too, had kids and needed my life back. Sweetie and I say this nicely, but you just need to coast and enjoy your own kids. You can go back when they are older. I did. I love my high poverty, high ESOL elementary school. I am ready to be more of a teacher and less of a conduit.

Everything you said is true. But these parents don't care. Seriously. I mean, some of them might, but the quote above and high passing SOL test scores really is the entire key to parents calling a school "good." They don't care how this occurs. They'll supplement, so let them. Send home worksheets. Hell, I remember the day when my kids weren't getting a math concept. I tried to teach it and then basically said to the parents you all need to make sure your kids know this concept. It's an important standard, we test it and if their kids can't do it, it might impact their SOL performance. I did this with the blessing and support of my admin. And you know what? These parents got tutors, supplemented and everyone passed. I didn't have to do the heavy lifting because no one expects it. They want the cohort of kids. They want to avoid ESOL or high poverty issues. They want peers with college educated parents where college is an expectation. They want the extras raised by a well-funded PTA.

But they don't care, OP. Hope tomorrow is better, dear.

Clearly this is what parents prefer. But does research support the notion that it's truly better? Are the kids and the extracurriculars really more important than the teaching? Maybe at the high school level but in elementary school? Control for SES and what's the outcome?

I think what OP sees is that in high performing schools, teachers are held to less high standards than struggling Title I schools. As a result, it's easier for a lazy (or less motivated) teacher to hide out in a high performing school than a struggling one. OP seems frustrated because she sees these teachers not doing their best, but parents don't care because the peer group, test scores, extra activities, demographics, etc. are the only thing that matters to them. But to OP, it seems like these kids' are being shortchanged.

The thread basically seems to confirm that the parents don't care about skilled teaching so much as about other things. Since the parents don't care, the state and county seem to only care about test scores, and there's nothing else holding them accountable, it creates this situation. There's no incentive to go-above and beyond because no one cares. Sure, some teachers do because they are committed professionals, but the environment is ripe for someone to take advantage of the lack of incentive to do more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

the overall environment at the top pyramid is simply better, especially the work ethic of the students and the range of extra-curricular activities.

OP, I feel for you. I was you. I spent 10 years in a high poverty school, had kids, went to a high performing school because I, too, had kids and needed my life back. Sweetie and I say this nicely, but you just need to coast and enjoy your own kids. You can go back when they are older. I did. I love my high poverty, high ESOL elementary school. I am ready to be more of a teacher and less of a conduit.

Everything you said is true. But these parents don't care. Seriously. I mean, some of them might, but the quote above and high passing SOL test scores really is the entire key to parents calling a school "good." They don't care how this occurs. They'll supplement, so let them. Send home worksheets. Hell, I remember the day when my kids weren't getting a math concept. I tried to teach it and then basically said to the parents you all need to make sure your kids know this concept. It's an important standard, we test it and if their kids can't do it, it might impact their SOL performance. I did this with the blessing and support of my admin. And you know what? These parents got tutors, supplemented and everyone passed. I didn't have to do the heavy lifting because no one expects it. They want the cohort of kids. They want to avoid ESOL or high poverty issues. They want peers with college educated parents where college is an expectation. They want the extras raised by a well-funded PTA.

But they don't care, OP. Hope tomorrow is better, dear.

Clearly this is what parents prefer. But does research support the notion that it's truly better? Are the kids and the extracurriculars really more important than the teaching? Maybe at the high school level but in elementary school? Control for SES and what's the outcome?

I think what OP sees is that in high performing schools, teachers are held to less high standards than struggling Title I schools. As a result, it's easier for a lazy (or less motivated) teacher to hide out in a high performing school than a struggling one. OP seems frustrated because she sees these teachers not doing their best, but parents don't care because the peer group, test scores, extra activities, demographics, etc. are the only thing that matters to them. But to OP, it seems like these kids' are being shortchanged.

The thread basically seems to confirm that the parents don't care about skilled teaching so much as about other things. Since the parents don't care, the state and county seem to only care about test scores, and there's nothing else holding them accountable, it creates this situation. There's no incentive to go-above and beyond because no one cares. Sure, some teachers do because they are committed professionals, but the environment is ripe for someone to take advantage of the lack of incentive to do more.

This. I haven't seen a coherent response to these points, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

the overall environment at the top pyramid is simply better, especially the work ethic of the students and the range of extra-curricular activities.

OP, I feel for you. I was you. I spent 10 years in a high poverty school, had kids, went to a high performing school because I, too, had kids and needed my life back. Sweetie and I say this nicely, but you just need to coast and enjoy your own kids. You can go back when they are older. I did. I love my high poverty, high ESOL elementary school. I am ready to be more of a teacher and less of a conduit.

Everything you said is true. But these parents don't care. Seriously. I mean, some of them might, but the quote above and high passing SOL test scores really is the entire key to parents calling a school "good." They don't care how this occurs. They'll supplement, so let them. Send home worksheets. Hell, I remember the day when my kids weren't getting a math concept. I tried to teach it and then basically said to the parents you all need to make sure your kids know this concept. It's an important standard, we test it and if their kids can't do it, it might impact their SOL performance. I did this with the blessing and support of my admin. And you know what? These parents got tutors, supplemented and everyone passed. I didn't have to do the heavy lifting because no one expects it. They want the cohort of kids. They want to avoid ESOL or high poverty issues. They want peers with college educated parents where college is an expectation. They want the extras raised by a well-funded PTA.

But they don't care, OP. Hope tomorrow is better, dear.

Clearly this is what parents prefer. But does research support the notion that it's truly better? Are the kids and the extracurriculars really more important than the teaching? Maybe at the high school level but in elementary school? Control for SES and what's the outcome?

I think what OP sees is that in high performing schools, teachers are held to less high standards than struggling Title I schools. As a result, it's easier for a lazy (or less motivated) teacher to hide out in a high performing school than a struggling one. OP seems frustrated because she sees these teachers not doing their best, but parents don't care because the peer group, test scores, extra activities, demographics, etc. are the only thing that matters to them. But to OP, it seems like these kids' are being shortchanged.

The thread basically seems to confirm that the parents don't care about skilled teaching so much as about other things. Since the parents don't care, the state and county seem to only care about test scores, and there's nothing else holding them accountable, it creates this situation. There's no incentive to go-above and beyond because no one cares. Sure, some teachers do because they are committed professionals, but the environment is ripe for someone to take advantage of the lack of incentive to do more.

This. I haven't seen a coherent response to these points, either.

Nope. There are plenty of slacker teachers in lower-performing schools. The fact that those schools also, at times, may have to focus intensely on SOLs just to get their kids to pass doesn’t mean the teachers are especially passionate about teaching or committed as professionals. It just means the teachers are more likely to live in fear that they’ll be blamed if their kids don’t pass the SOLs. That’s a non-issue in the top pyramids, where the kids easily pass the SOLs, and it frees the best teachers up to go beyond the standard curriculum. The teaching at our GS 9 high school was better than at our GS 6 school, and the expectations were higher as well.

[Anonymous]

Nope. There are plenty of slacker teachers in lower-performing schools. The fact that those schools also, at times, may have to focus intensely on SOLs just to get their kids to pass doesn’t mean the teachers are especially passionate about teaching or committed as professionals. It just means the teachers are more likely to live in fear that they’ll be blamed if their kids don’t pass the SOLs. That’s a non-issue in the top pyramids, where the kids easily pass the SOLs, and it frees the best teachers up to go beyond the standard curriculum. The teaching at our GS 9 high school was better than at our GS 6 school, and the expectations were higher as well.

OP here. I have to respond to this because it's not really true.

Title I schools in FCPS tend to get many, many new and new-ish teachers. These teachers tend to struggle. Not only because it's a hard population of students to serve, but because the expectations are much, much higher. Maybe that was the point I was trying to make? A Title I school teacher is expected to have records of her or his efforts to reach every single student. And they are challenged, pushed and held accountable if they aren't doing more to reach their kids.

In my experience, all of these new and new-ish teachers run for the hills and transfair to a higher achieving school. They usually bail because they clear the 3-year review cycle barely and decide that they don't want to deal with the extra work. People who don't do this and can't handle the work are actually de-staffed. I've seen it many times, fwiw. I work with a woman who left my old school after three years in a different grade and she's chilling. She tells "horror stories" about how hard it was to work at our old school. Spoiler: It wasn't the kids. It was the paper work, the extra observations, the extra oversight that she complains about. I don't say anything, but the lack of rigor is something I see as problematic.

One interesting point. I had a really great admin team and talking to friends in other schools it seems that the county puts a lot into putting strong admins into Title I school, struggling schools. I can't speak about the process for schools like mine (we haven't had a principal search), but admin is much more hands-off. The expectations around here are lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just think it's harder to find advanced classes in a lower SES school. Plus more safety issues with the neighborhood. A school near us that is a little poorer had to stop teaching advanced math because there were only 3 kids in the grade at that level. Another school near us has two classes at that level. Also just a safer area to grow up.

You must not be familiar with the Rt 1 corridor. Mount Vernon has some VERY expensive, VERY nice neighborhoods - there are many neighborhoods along the Potomac River with multi-million dollar homes. You go less than a mile to Rt. 1 and find trailer parks and apartments. Both neighborhoods feed into the same elementary, middle and high school. I live in Mount Vernon in a very safe, very upper middle class neighborhood. I feel completely safe in my home and neighborhood.

And our elementary school offers advanced math. Our middle school has Honors classes and MVHS offers the full IB diploma, plus a few AP classes, Dual Enrollment classes and Honors.

Isn't Mount Vernon at a point of not even being accredited? Living less than a mile away from crime isn't my idea of safe. What elementary school other than the AAP center there offers AAP lessons in all subjects?

Probably Fort Hunt.

[Anonymous]

Yes, and the death March to the SOLs in a Title 1 school requires all hands on deck. If your child is getting enrichment or level 3 pullouts, expect that to end ( in January).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, and the death March to the SOLs in a Title 1 school requires all hands on deck. If your child is getting enrichment or level 3 pullouts, expect that to end ( in January).

I work at a Title I as an AAP teacher. This isn't true and if you are seeing this it's because your child is not clearing ECART benchmarks, fwiw. They are trying to help your kid, FFS.

[Anonymous]

The pullouts began after the first quarter marking period ended in early November. They we're done by Jan. I knew the specialist who was involved in the pullouts. We were told help was needed with SOLs. My child qualified for AAP the following year. So you think they liked to let us down more easily?