Religious tolerance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I would really appreciate an explanation because I don't understand your comment. I understand the difference between the two groups, but isn't it possible that the particular priests who are guilty of pedophilia are also homosexuals? I rarely, if ever, hear of any young girls in the Catholic church being molested.

OP here. I suppose it's possible that some of the offending priests are gay, but statistics point to mostly straight men molesting children of both genders.

Gay does not equal pedophile. Your assertion is kind of offensive. If you'd ever looked at a reliable study, you see that being a gay man does not make one more likely to be a pedophils. It happens I'm roughly the same percentages as the straight population. The people who say we're all pedophiles are spreading anti-gay propaganda.

[Anonymous]

Apologies for the typos. "pedophils" should be "pedophile" and "I'm" should be "in".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

There were many of us who posted about being offended by the catholic church's strong and vocal position on gay marriage, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well. It was used as an example, not an exclusive one. But the offensiveness of it comes from their belief that, in essence, we all have to live by their faith. When they lobby congress and fund political campaigns to ensure that we all have to live "their" way, that's what's offensive, and you just simply don't find that in other religions. You don't. Sorry, so they WILL be singled out for that activity. You are really missing the point when you suggest that by saying THAT activity is offensive that those of us who are appalled by the church's activities wouldn't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage or that that is some kind of principled stance that any of us would even want to take. I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:12:30 again. Wouldn't society suck if everybody was like the ranting atheist? We couldn't talk to anybody besides close family and friends.

"I like Virginia better than Maryland." "You are obviously a right-wing gun nut."

"I thought Woody Allen's latest movie about Paris was great." "Why are you such a slave to Holywood, and Hemmingway was a drunk."

It would be hell on earth, whether or not you believe in hell down below.

Which is why respect in all matters is so important.

You: "I like Virginia better than Maryland."
Me: "Not me; it's a little too rural. I like to live in an area that's more cosmopolitan."
You: "YOU INTOLERANT BASTARD!!!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9:31. I think we agree that it's OK to criticize an institution. I've been thinking about 11:23's point and I think that if it's fair to criticize the bankers or the corn-growers, then it's fair to criticize particular churches when they support particular legislation.

Where I disagree with you on is your statement that "nobody has said that all Catholics are jerks." I actually see this all the time on DCUM, usually linked to sweeping statements about catholics and (a) pedophilia, (b) the entirety of catholic doctrine, (c) all catholics are intolerant of gays and/or non-believers, and (d) belief in fairies. Same for mormons and evangelicals. I'm not in any of these groups, FWIW.

Again, the point is HOW the criticisms are made (19:21), not that nobody can criticize anything.

But all of these things are true:

a) the Catholic church has an institutional history of pedophillia and institutional cover-up. Ironically, it also has a sordid recent history of trying to tie gay men to pedophillia. (You'd think they'd have just a sliver of shame over that, but whatever...)
b) don't care
c) the Catholic church as an institution is intolerant of gays.
d) You're being hyper-sensitivity. No one's said catholics believe in fairies. Just that there is as little reason for religious belief.

You may not like hearing them (particularly a and c), but much like libel, the truth is a defense. By remaining silent in these discussions, we give our quiet assent.

I would really appreciate an explanation because I don't understand your comment. I understand the difference between the two groups, but isn't it possible that the particular priests who are guilty of pedophilia are also homosexuals? I rarely, if ever, hear of any young girls in the Catholic church being molested.

And here we have one of the staunch defenders of "tolerance" calling all gay men pedophiles. Bravo! Couldn't have made the case better myself.

(Side Note: Dan Savage made a fantastic observation a while back. If you're worried about your child being sexually abused, don't send them to church camp; they're safer at a gay disco.)

[Anonymous]

You: "I like Virginia better than Maryland."
Me: "Not me; it's a little too rural. I like to live in an area that's more cosmopolitan."
You: "YOU INTOLERANT BASTARD!!!"

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

There were many of us who posted about being offended by the catholic church's strong and vocal position on gay marriage, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well. It was used as an example, not an exclusive one. But the offensiveness of it comes from their belief that, in essence, we all have to live by their faith. When they lobby congress and fund political campaigns to ensure that we all have to live "their" way, that's what's offensive, and you just simply don't find that in other religions. You don't. Sorry, so they WILL be singled out for that activity. You are really missing the point when you suggest that by saying THAT activity is offensive that those of us who are appalled by the church's activities wouldn't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage or that that is some kind of principled stance that any of us would even want to take. I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

Actually, you do find that in other religions. Pick a religion (Islam, for example) and google PACs. There are plenty. So, either you are poorly informed, or you, in particalur, hate the Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Conversations on this board tend to quickly devolve into irrational name-calling, which I assume you don't do with your husband. Maybe it's just the RA who sets it off, but while I personally don't feel persecuted as a Catholic, I do get tired of the nastiness as opposed to rational discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

There were many of us who posted about being offended by the catholic church's strong and vocal position on gay marriage, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well. It was used as an example, not an exclusive one. But the offensiveness of it comes from their belief that, in essence, we all have to live by their faith. When they lobby congress and fund political campaigns to ensure that we all have to live "their" way, that's what's offensive, and you just simply don't find that in other religions. You don't. Sorry, so they WILL be singled out for that activity. You are really missing the point when you suggest that by saying THAT activity is offensive that those of us who are appalled by the church's activities wouldn't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage or that that is some kind of principled stance that any of us would even want to take. I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

Actually, you do find that in other religions. Pick a religion (Islam, for example) and google PACs. There are plenty. So, either you are poorly informed, or you, in particalur, hate the Catholic Church.

OK, thanks. Now I find them offensive too! Thanks for the heads up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

There were many of us who posted about being offended by the catholic church's strong and vocal position on gay marriage, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well. It was used as an example, not an exclusive one. But the offensiveness of it comes from their belief that, in essence, we all have to live by their faith. When they lobby congress and fund political campaigns to ensure that we all have to live "their" way, that's what's offensive, and you just simply don't find that in other religions. You don't. Sorry, so they WILL be singled out for that activity. You are really missing the point when you suggest that by saying THAT activity is offensive that those of us who are appalled by the church's activities wouldn't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage or that that is some kind of principled stance that any of us would even want to take. I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

Actually, you do find that in other religions. Pick a religion (Islam, for example) and google PACs. There are plenty. So, either you are poorly informed, or you, in particalur, hate the Catholic Church.

OK, thanks. Now I find them offensive too! Thanks for the heads up!

Lovely -the so-called tolerant finding even more people to be angry with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry hit post too soon - it is possible to take a principled stance that you won't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage, but I think it crosses over into bigotry if you single out one religion for a belief shared by many religions. So if you condemn the Catholics for being anti gay marriage you have to also go After the Muslims and Hindus and Protestants, etc etc. Otherwise it is just bigotry.

Well....I never said I don't associate with Catholics because the church is opposed to gay marriage (and I think THAT might be an example of 'bigotry'). And I do disagree with any person and any institution opposing gay marriage.

But is there a large institution representing the beliefs of the Hindu religion lobbying Congress hard to oppose gay marriage? Is there a large Muslim contingent writing and/or backing propositions opposing gay marriage? We certainly tend to hear more about the Catholic church and the Mormon church and various Evangelical churches engaging in this activity. But yes, I am equally offended by all parties, religious or not, who are fighting for this discrimination.

There were many of us who posted about being offended by the catholic church's strong and vocal position on gay marriage, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well. It was used as an example, not an exclusive one. But the offensiveness of it comes from their belief that, in essence, we all have to live by their faith. When they lobby congress and fund political campaigns to ensure that we all have to live "their" way, that's what's offensive, and you just simply don't find that in other religions. You don't. Sorry, so they WILL be singled out for that activity. You are really missing the point when you suggest that by saying THAT activity is offensive that those of us who are appalled by the church's activities wouldn't associate with anyone who opposes gay marriage or that that is some kind of principled stance that any of us would even want to take. I happen to be married to someone who opposes gay marriage. Do I wish he didn't feel that way? You bet and it drives me crazy, but we discuss it when it comes up in the news and we have rational discussion. The need for some of the people on this board to feel persecuted is a little odd to me.

Actually, you do find that in other religions. Pick a religion (Islam, for example) and google PACs. There are plenty. So, either you are poorly informed, or you, in particalur, hate the Catholic Church.

OK, thanks. Now I find them offensive too! Thanks for the heads up!

Lovely -the so-called tolerant finding even more people to be angry with.

Yes, I can't believe PP is so intolerant at being called a child-molesting queer who's going to burn in Hell by folks who are trying to deny him/her visitation/custody rights through legislation. Shame so-called tolerant queer person!

[Anonymous]

To quote Matt Groenig, "How dare you flinch when I throw things at you!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, why am I expected to show capitalized respect? To me, all religious myths are just that: fairy tales, with the same amount of impact. Because you deeply believe in your version of Santa Claus, this feels like disrespect to you. To me, your insistence that I pay lip service to your beliefs feels just as disrespectful to me.

Religion is a myth. If you like it, fine. Keep it out of politics, neatly tucked into your pretty dresses and fancy hats on whatever day you choose to worship whomever on.

It is tolerance. You have a belief. Fine. Perfectly cool. Until you expect me to play along, and grant your particular mythology some fancy special status.

Well said! I don't think the religious types understand that atheists view religion as being in the same category as myths and fairy tales. It's not being disrespectful, it's just not holding their religious beliefs to a higher standard than, say, the Greek and Roman myths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, why am I expected to show capitalized respect? To me, all religious myths are just that: fairy tales, with the same amount of impact. Because you deeply believe in your version of Santa Claus, this feels like disrespect to you. To me, your insistence that I pay lip service to your beliefs feels just as disrespectful to me.

Religion is a myth. If you like it, fine. Keep it out of politics, neatly tucked into your pretty dresses and fancy hats on whatever day you choose to worship whomever on.

It is tolerance. You have a belief. Fine. Perfectly cool. Until you expect me to play along, and grant your particular mythology some fancy special status.

Well said! I don't think the religious types understand that atheists view religion as being in the same category as myths and fairy tales. It's not being disrespectful, it's just not holding their religious beliefs to a higher standard than, say, the Greek and Roman myths.

You're not allowed to think that! So intolerant! You have to tiptoe around the sensitivities of the "faithful", otherwise you might damage their capacity for the willing suspension of disbelief. They used to burn folks at the stake for this, you know?