Why is Walmart bad?

[Anonymous]

PP that is not a great analogy. A slave gets nothing but gried from slavery. The Chinese that you're talking about want to feed their families. But, I agree, better working conditions are a must.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
How many of the products on the shelves of WalMart are manufactured in the US versus in China?

PP again -- I found the answer -- it's something like 70%!!!

I don't have anything against China or the Chinese, but I can't help feeling like we are taking advantage of their lax environmental regulations, and their poor employment conditions, to get our stuff at a very cheap (to us) cost.
THe fact that if you ask the Chinese rank and file workers, they seem to like this situation, isn't exactly relevant.

If you had a slave and beat him to work 18 hours a day... then gave him better working conditions and said he only had to work 12 hours a day, he'd say he was doing better, wouldn't he? So you could say it was an improvement over the former situation -- but it still wouldn't make it right to benefit from slavery.

Make your own apple sauce and apple juice, it's easy, I do it all the time. It is a global economy and most of America's manufacturing jobs are out-sourced. What do you buy that is made in the USA? Many of the parts for American automobiles are made in Mexico. Toyota has become more of an American product made in the US than GM. Ford, whatever. If you don't want to shop at Wal-Mart, fine, but stop acting as though this is because you want to buy American products, manufactured by American companies that are hiring American citizens because this is not the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Make your own apple sauce and apple juice, it's easy, I do it all the time. It is a global economy and most of America's manufacturing jobs are out-sourced. What do you buy that is made in the USA? Many of the parts for American automobiles are made in Mexico. Toyota has become more of an American product made in the US than GM. Ford, whatever. If you don't want to shop at Wal-Mart, fine, but stop acting as though this is because you want to buy American products, manufactured by American companies that are hiring American citizens because this is not the case.

No I don't want to make my own apple juice. I am happy to buy it from someone in the US, preferably in a state near to where I live.

What do I buy that is made in the US? First, I don't buy a lot, because we are pretty moderate income. So, I buy one thing, and make it last. (Outdated concept, I know!!) I don't change every season or every year.

Second, I buy things if possible that are made entirely in the US, or in other countries that have similar (or better!) environomental regulations and labor conditions. I don't have any problem buying things that are made in Canada, Germany, or Sweden, for instance! Truly, it is mostly Made In Chin that I try to avoid, right now. (That's hard enough)

Third, for big expensive purchases, I research on the internet. For small or moderate, repeated purchases, I make a list of foods and other products I routinely but, and find the best choices I can (again internet helps) and keep a record of what products are made in OK places. Then I just buy those things.

I'm not perfect, but one way to help me buy American (or at least avoid Made in China) is by not shopping at WalMart! The majority of it's products come from China, so shopping at WalMart would make it very hard for me to avoice buying items made in China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You make it sound like these factories are inflicted on them. In fact, they are the source of China's growth and the rising incomes in it. I think there is a misperception here. Yes, they get paid less than us but they are doing much better than under the old economy. Most of China was living in poverty, and these factory jobs give them a pretty good quality of life. They are sending money back home, buying houses. Wages and working conditions are going up.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/chinese_factory_workers_cash_i.html

Um, where to begin. Yes, the factories with their pollution are inflicted on the poorest of the Chinese. To say that they are doing better than under their old economy is debatable. More income but also much more pollution, pollution and toxins that we in the US don't want to deal with.

The deveoped world is sending out work to China to be manufactured there, because it is cheaper because in China there aren't nearly as many environmental regulations to worry about.

We are taking advantage of them, and it is mostly the ruling elite in China that is getting the benefit of this arrangement -- not the rank and file workers. Sure, hey get some more money, but they get a LOT of pollution.

That's not fair.

I think that the environmental issue is a legitimate one, although to me it is two-faced of our country to build an entire economy on pollution (let's face it, we did) and then turn over a new leaf (sort of) and yet point the finger at developing nations. Essentially we are telling them to do as we say but not as we did.

But you are wrong when you say that the rank and file are not benefitting. It is undeniable that the people working in these factories are making more than they spend, buying consumer products of their own for the first time, and funneling money to their poor families in the country. And as for the environmental negatives, they affect everyone in China, whether it is the food supply, air, or water quality, not just the rank and file.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if all the people who hate Walmart shop at Target? It's probably just as bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP that is not a great analogy. A slave gets nothing but gried from slavery. The Chinese that you're talking about want to feed their families. But, I agree, better working conditions are a must.

I don't think posters are really aware of the current working conditions in Chinese manufacturing. They are not without fault, but they are not slavery. A lot has changed in recent years because the economy is improving and as a result, factories pay better and treat their workers better than they used to.

Here is an article from 2006 which explains what has happened in recent years and is even more true today than four years ago:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_13/b3977049.htm

Here is a more recent article about demand for labor in China. It talks about signing bonuses for factory workers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/27/business/global/27yuan.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=business&adxnnlx=1267279899-BX+KaWAzVmdp/DFKk1s+nA

This article describes how in some cases the cost of production/shipping from China is closing in on the costs of U.S. production:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Companies-brace-for-end-of-apf-2437567795.html?x=0

Chinese workers demanding higher pay are starting to strike, showing that labor has the leverage to negotiate now
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/23/business/global/23strike.html

It's not all wonderful there, there are some negative things. But wages have been growing between 10 and 20% per year since at least 2002, the time period I am familiar with. And yes, wages are lower than the are here, but you can't get hung up on the absolute dollars. China's currency does not float against the dollar. You have to look at what it costs to rent an apartment, buy clothes and electronics, etc.

Things are not what they once were. Global demand for Chinese products is not enslaving workers. It is making them more prosperous.

[Anonymous]

The alvery analogy I used was not meant to impy that I thought Chinese workers were slaves.

It was just an analogy to indicate that even though the workers might say things are better than they were before, that doesn't mean much if "before" was really crappy, and now is just a little bit crappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The alvery analogy I used was not meant to impy that I thought Chinese workers were slaves.

It was just an analogy to indicate that even though the workers might say things are better than they were before, that doesn't mean much if "before" was really crappy, and now is just a little bit crappy.

Do you buy fruit and vegetables at the grocery story? Most of those who work on these US farms are migrant workers, some children as young as 6 yrs old picking berries, but I'm willing to bet you buy and consume blueberries, etc. Why aren't you ranting against child labor and the conditions of migrant parents living in shacks?
Too many PP's with a double standard on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Here's the thing though. You cannot have the rich or even the ok-off with a high standard of living without the poor and exploited living hand to mouth. Your good fortune means someone somewhere is paying the price for that directly or indirectly, whether you are aware of that or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The alvery analogy I used was not meant to impy that I thought Chinese workers were slaves.

It was just an analogy to indicate that even though the workers might say things are better than they were before, that doesn't mean much if "before" was really crappy, and now is just a little bit crappy.

Do you buy fruit and vegetables at the grocery story? Most of those who work on these US farms are migrant workers, some children as young as 6 yrs old picking berries, but I'm willing to bet you buy and consume blueberries, etc. Why aren't you ranting against child labor and the conditions of migrant parents living in shacks?
Too many PP's with a double standard on this thread.

Why do you assume there is a double standard? I only buy fruits and vegetables from a CSA.

And I am not "ranting". Just making a point. The fact that standards are improving, somewhat, for Chinese laborers and factory workers, and for their human rights (free speech, etc) a little bit, doesn't mean that thing are peachy there.

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2010/04/15/240915/Microsoft-supplier-in-China-has-39sweatshop-conditions39.htm

A Microsoft supplier in China is forcing teenagers to work 15-hour shifts in "sweatshop conditions", according to a report by the National Labor Committee (NLC).

A three-year investigation of the KYE factory in Dongguan, China, produced pictures of exhausted teenagers "seen slumping over asleep on their assembly line during break time". Microsoft says it has launched an investigation into the conditions.

The factory employs up to 1,000 students aged around 16 or 17 who work 15-hour shifts, six or seven days a week. They make webcams, mice and other computer peripherals for Microsoft and other US companies.

The factory pays workers 65 cents an hour, which falls to 52 cents an hour after deductions for factory food. They work between 68 and 80 hours a week. The NLC says management controls "every second" of the workers' lives, and the pace is gruelling, with a mandatory target of producing 2,000 mice per shift.

[Anonymous]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/china/article/820395--labour-strife-rolls-across-china

Nearly 5,500 walked off their jobs at the Pingdingshan Cotton Textile Co. here recently, demanding better pay and working conditions.

By anyone’s measure they had cause: most work for 65 cents per hour.

Suddenly, strikes are surging across China as poorly paid workers — the engine of China’s economic miracle — are demanding a bigger share of the enormous wealth the country is earning from its booming export-driven economy.

The strikes — many not reported inside China on orders from the central government — threaten to cripple an economy that has enjoyed double-digit growth for years.

The government wants to keep a lid on them.

(snip)

Last week much of the country’s attention focused on a strike at a Japanese-owned Honda factory in southern China — for which Chinese authorities allowed rare and open reporting. Workers there won a 24 per cent pay hike.

Authorities also allowed reporting on the Taiwanese-owned Foxconn electronic assembly plant, where a scourge of suicides by workers corralled in regimented factories rocked the nation.

Foxconn responded with a 30 per cent wage increase – and announced a further 70 per cent Monday.

But few in China heard about the clash in Pingdingshan — or more than 15 other strikes that spilled into the streets of China in May.

While it was fine for Chinese media to report on strikes at large, foreign-owned factories — the government suppressed news about worker actions at other, Chinese-owned and operated plants. It didn’t want the contagion to spread to other pools of cheap labour across China.

And few are as cheap as those in Pingdingshan.

more at link

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The factory pays workers 65 cents an hour, which falls to 52 cents an hour after deductions for factory food. They work between 68 and 80 hours a week. The NLC says management controls "every second" of the workers' lives, and the pace is gruelling, with a mandatory target of producing 2,000 mice per shift.

Wow, sounds kinda like jobs here.

The firm pays workers $150 an hour, which falls to $50 an hour after deductions for taxes, repayment of loans and services outsourced as a result of minimized time to take care of common daily tasks and responsibilities. ($15 an hour taking into account the toll such lifestyle takes on one's health, mental sanity, decreased family and friend time and loss of youth and optimistic outlook.) They work between 100 and 130 hours a week. Management controls "every second" of the workers' lives, and the pace is grueling with a mandatory target of producing 2,000 billable hours per year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The alvery analogy I used was not meant to impy that I thought Chinese workers were slaves.

It was just an analogy to indicate that even though the workers might say things are better than they were before, that doesn't mean much if "before" was really crappy, and now is just a little bit crappy.

Do you buy fruit and vegetables at the grocery story? Most of those who work on these US farms are migrant workers, some children as young as 6 yrs old picking berries, but I'm willing to bet you buy and consume blueberries, etc. Why aren't you ranting against child labor and the conditions of migrant parents living in shacks?
Too many PP's with a double standard on this thread.

Why do you assume there is a double standard? I only buy fruits and vegetables from a CSA.

And I am not "ranting". Just making a point. The fact that standards are improving, somewhat, for Chinese laborers and factory workers, and for their human rights (free speech, etc) a little bit, doesn't mean that thing are peachy there.

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2010/04/15/240915/Microsoft-supplier-in-China-has-39sweatshop-conditions39.htm

A Microsoft supplier in China is forcing teenagers to work 15-hour shifts in "sweatshop conditions", according to a report by the National Labor Committee (NLC).

A three-year investigation of the KYE factory in Dongguan, China, produced pictures of exhausted teenagers "seen slumping over asleep on their assembly line during break time". Microsoft says it has launched an investigation into the conditions.

The factory employs up to 1,000 students aged around 16 or 17 who work 15-hour shifts, six or seven days a week. They make webcams, mice and other computer peripherals for Microsoft and other US companies.

The factory pays workers 65 cents an hour, which falls to 52 cents an hour after deductions for factory food. They work between 68 and 80 hours a week. The NLC says management controls "every second" of the workers' lives, and the pace is gruelling, with a mandatory target of producing 2,000 mice per shift.

Why don't you adopt a Chinese worker and pay them minimum wage from your pocket. If you did this them I might believe your declared altruism. How do you know that CSA products aren't harvested by migrant workers? You don't. Prove that all CSA seasonal employees are paid minimum wage, have health benefits, enough to eat, especially in winter, and live in decent housing. Can't do it, can you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing though. You cannot have the rich or even the ok-off with a high standard of living without the poor and exploited living hand to mouth. Your good fortune means someone somewhere is paying the price for that directly or indirectly, whether you are aware of that or not.

That is not true. There is no economic law that says there can never be enough to go around. This is an assertion without any evidence.

[Anonymous]

Wal-Mart is a satanic pile of steaming shit. It refuses to pay its workers a living wage. It refuses to allow them to get union representation as is a worker's right by law and instead is one of the most egregious union busters.
http://www.workdayminnesota.org/index.php?news_6_3828
http://www.thenation.com/blog/171418/josh-eidelson-walmart-pioneer-union-busting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/may/01/usnews.supermarkets
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/02/wal-marts-union-busting-p_n_633942.html
http://www.prwatch.org/node/6007

It gets sued for forcing workers to work overtime unpaid because it is so greedy for profits it can't stand to pay time-and-a-half.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/10/29/walmart-unpaid-overtime-lawsuit-strikes/
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-533818.html

Defend this horrid corporation all you want. It represents everything that is wrong with America and capitalism itself. Low-paying service sector slave wage jobs where the worker has no leverage and is constantly shit upon in the name of higher profits for the already-overprivileged shareholders. Fuck Wal-Mart and fuck capitalism.