Why does college prestige matter to you? Rank these reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

DP. Why do you doubt it? The most elite schools are known for having more challenging coursework, stem and humanities. Any professor will tell you that. Professors have written about it. Not cornell, but one student of ours takes second semester calculus at a different ivy versus one taking the equivalent at a non-flagship in VA: they are night and day. They both are equivalent to BC calc, are the “regular “ versions (the ivy has an even more difficult proof based version) and they cover almost the same topics, yet the ivy has several topics not in the state school curriculum, and the psets /quizzes/exams are much different, with the ivy much more difficult . For people who study math or are in mathematics-heavy fields, it is not subtle how much harder the ivy is. I do not have one at UVA to know where uva falls on the spectrum of difficulty.

Where is the actual evidence?

The commonness of extremely rigorous proof-based math courses intended for first semester students at top universities, compared to their rarity elsewhere. Just about every T20 has one.

You can also look at the finals for the lowest level, easiest math courses (which are often several levels below the most rigorous freshman classes):

Precalc final at Princeton: https://exams.math.princeton.edu/syllabus/mat103/precalculus

One-semester combined calc 1 and 2 final at MIT: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/pages/final-exam/

Calc 2 final at Princeton: https://web.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/104/F02ans.pdf

DP. We reviewed syllabi when our first was applying to colleges, at the urging of our college professor family member who has taught at T10s and T55-60. The course offerings are more rigorous, indeed as pointed out by other posters above and on other threads , at almost all T20s. Not sure why this is surprising to anyone. The student body makeup skews much further to the top-1% students; these students are the future of intellectual thought in whatever fields they choose. Of course the top schools need these courses, and their “regular “ intro courses are also more rigorous. The vast majority of professors are about the same—it is the student level that determines how hard the professors can push the pace and depth of coursework

You'd be surprised by how underwhelming the math talent is at most T20s. It's just that Princeton swallows all the students interested in math academia and MIT the competitive math students. Harvard has math geniuses, but they're 2% of the math students. The rest are very very average.

You’re missing the point.
The average student in average math are not “average”. I have kids at ivies and spouse and I went ourselves. The average student has gotten much smarter since we attended. It is very different than what our siblings and nephews have experienced at lesser schools that are not close toT30.

You're missing nuance. UChicago is not in the Ivy League yet their honors analysis sequence (which is formally open to qualified freshmen) is graduate level and at least on par with if not harder than math 55.

On the flip side, UMD is outside the T30 but still has the type of proof based calc 3+ linear algebra courses (340+341) that Cornell does (2230+2240)

Some people in this thread don’t get how many paths there are to coursework at any college, not just ivies. If you come in with BC calc, you have a lot of options at most colleges in the US

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It matters for my child's future. UVA has nothing to offer for real UMC families. It is great if you want to go into menial careers like engineering or accounting. DC needs a fulfilling career that doesn't just run you stir crazy to make money for others. It has been successful for his siblings who are at Yale and Stanford. I recognize the importance of public education for the lower class and social mobility purposes and that's wonderful for them.

You are an insufferable snob. Go away.

Another poor underling. I hope one day you can see beyond UVA and see where the elites play and learn. Nothing more sad than seeing poverty eat those in public institutions alive, but I’m sure a secretary position will work wonders for your dc.

You know nothing about my family, so let me share. My high stats kid - valedictorian, 4.0 UW, 5.2 W, 1560 SAT (no prep whatsoever), NMF, full IB Diploma + AP, niche sport team captain (state level), accomplished string instrumentalist (state level), long term ECs, part-time CS job, awards galore…I can go on and on was inundated with unsolicited mail from Harvard, Yale, Penn, Cornell, MIT, Vanderbilt, UChicago, Duke, Columbia, NYU, Pamona, Swarthmore…well you get the picture, chose a school for fit not for bragging rights; however, trust me the school chosen has both. And please indulge me while I share a bit more. My kid’s personal brokerage account alone affords them the opportunity to consider career paths without having to contemplate salaries. And as for inheritance, kid is set for life. You are a small man.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

DP. Why do you doubt it? The most elite schools are known for having more challenging coursework, stem and humanities. Any professor will tell you that. Professors have written about it. Not cornell, but one student of ours takes second semester calculus at a different ivy versus one taking the equivalent at a non-flagship in VA: they are night and day. They both are equivalent to BC calc, are the “regular “ versions (the ivy has an even more difficult proof based version) and they cover almost the same topics, yet the ivy has several topics not in the state school curriculum, and the psets /quizzes/exams are much different, with the ivy much more difficult . For people who study math or are in mathematics-heavy fields, it is not subtle how much harder the ivy is. I do not have one at UVA to know where uva falls on the spectrum of difficulty.

Where is the actual evidence?

The commonness of extremely rigorous proof-based math courses intended for first semester students at top universities, compared to their rarity elsewhere. Just about every T20 has one.

You can also look at the finals for the lowest level, easiest math courses (which are often several levels below the most rigorous freshman classes):

Precalc final at Princeton: https://exams.math.princeton.edu/syllabus/mat103/precalculus

One-semester combined calc 1 and 2 final at MIT: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/pages/final-exam/

Calc 2 final at Princeton: https://web.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/104/F02ans.pdf

DP. We reviewed syllabi when our first was applying to colleges, at the urging of our college professor family member who has taught at T10s and T55-60. The course offerings are more rigorous, indeed as pointed out by other posters above and on other threads , at almost all T20s. Not sure why this is surprising to anyone. The student body makeup skews much further to the top-1% students; these students are the future of intellectual thought in whatever fields they choose. Of course the top schools need these courses, and their “regular “ intro courses are also more rigorous. The vast majority of professors are about the same—it is the student level that determines how hard the professors can push the pace and depth of coursework

You'd be surprised by how underwhelming the math talent is at most T20s. It's just that Princeton swallows all the students interested in math academia and MIT the competitive math students. Harvard has math geniuses, but they're 2% of the math students. The rest are very very average.

You’re missing the point.
The average student in average math are not “average”. I have kids at ivies and spouse and I went ourselves. The average student has gotten much smarter since we attended. It is very different than what our siblings and nephews have experienced at lesser schools that are not close toT30.

You're missing nuance. UChicago is not in the Ivy League yet their honors analysis sequence (which is formally open to qualified freshmen) is graduate level and at least on par with if not harder than math 55.

On the flip side, UMD is outside the T30 but still has the type of proof based calc 3+ linear algebra courses (340+341) that Cornell does (2230+2240)

Some people in this thread don’t get how many paths there are to coursework at any college, not just ivies. If you come in with BC calc, you have a lot of options at most colleges in the US

PP here, I wouldn't say "most" - outside the top 100, I haven't found a single proof based linear algebra + multivariable calculus freshman sequence like UMD and UVA have, and outside T30 I've only seen them at large state flagships which have both a large student population and a significant minority of extremely strong students who are often there for the in state tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

DP. Why do you doubt it? The most elite schools are known for having more challenging coursework, stem and humanities. Any professor will tell you that. Professors have written about it. Not cornell, but one student of ours takes second semester calculus at a different ivy versus one taking the equivalent at a non-flagship in VA: they are night and day. They both are equivalent to BC calc, are the “regular “ versions (the ivy has an even more difficult proof based version) and they cover almost the same topics, yet the ivy has several topics not in the state school curriculum, and the psets /quizzes/exams are much different, with the ivy much more difficult . For people who study math or are in mathematics-heavy fields, it is not subtle how much harder the ivy is. I do not have one at UVA to know where uva falls on the spectrum of difficulty.

Where is the actual evidence?

The commonness of extremely rigorous proof-based math courses intended for first semester students at top universities, compared to their rarity elsewhere. Just about every T20 has one.

You can also look at the finals for the lowest level, easiest math courses (which are often several levels below the most rigorous freshman classes):

Precalc final at Princeton: https://exams.math.princeton.edu/syllabus/mat103/precalculus

One-semester combined calc 1 and 2 final at MIT: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/pages/final-exam/

Calc 2 final at Princeton: https://web.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/104/F02ans.pdf

DP. We reviewed syllabi when our first was applying to colleges, at the urging of our college professor family member who has taught at T10s and T55-60. The course offerings are more rigorous, indeed as pointed out by other posters above and on other threads , at almost all T20s. Not sure why this is surprising to anyone. The student body makeup skews much further to the top-1% students; these students are the future of intellectual thought in whatever fields they choose. Of course the top schools need these courses, and their “regular “ intro courses are also more rigorous. The vast majority of professors are about the same—it is the student level that determines how hard the professors can push the pace and depth of coursework

You'd be surprised by how underwhelming the math talent is at most T20s. It's just that Princeton swallows all the students interested in math academia and MIT the competitive math students. Harvard has math geniuses, but they're 2% of the math students. The rest are very very average.

You’re missing the point.
The average student in average math are not “average”. I have kids at ivies and spouse and I went ourselves. The average student has gotten much smarter since we attended. It is very different than what our siblings and nephews have experienced at lesser schools that are not close toT30.

You're missing nuance. UChicago is not in the Ivy League yet their honors analysis sequence (which is formally open to qualified freshmen) is graduate level and at least on par with if not harder than math 55.

On the flip side, UMD is outside the T30 but still has the type of proof based calc 3+ linear algebra courses (340+341) that Cornell does (2230+2240)

Some people in this thread don’t get how many paths there are to coursework at any college, not just ivies. If you come in with BC calc, you have a lot of options at most colleges in the US

PP here, I wouldn't say "most" - outside the top 100, I haven't found a single proof based linear algebra + multivariable calculus freshman sequence like UMD and UVA have, and outside T30 I've only seen them at large state flagships which have both a large student population and a significant minority of extremely strong students who are often there for the in state tuition.

Well do you think that most people who are even considering an Ivy are trying for many schools beyond the top 100. It’s also not that hard to go to a top 100 college- Drexel and TAMU are top 100 colleges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

No…literally at Princeton there was a class with that title…still there anyone?

It was not considered a challenging course.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

No…literally at Princeton there was a class with that title…still there anyone?

It was not considered a challenging course.

That's a strange Princeton choice, but it is not the norm. Most physics classes have the regular "toned down" for non-majors and the physics for physics majors. No unicorn classes where you won't be solving complex problem sets.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

No…literally at Princeton there was a class with that title…still there anyone?

It was not considered a challenging course.

That's a strange Princeton choice, but it is not the norm. Most physics classes have the regular "toned down" for non-majors and the physics for physics majors. No unicorn classes where you won't be solving complex problem sets.

The equivalent classes are everywhere though…maybe it isn’t Physics but there are classes that satisfy Gen Ed Math/STEM requirements that are very much dumbed down for kids that will never take another class in that area but need to check a box. Anyone majoring in that area or in any STEM field usually isn’t allowed to get credit for the class.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

DP. Why do you doubt it? The most elite schools are known for having more challenging coursework, stem and humanities. Any professor will tell you that. Professors have written about it. Not cornell, but one student of ours takes second semester calculus at a different ivy versus one taking the equivalent at a non-flagship in VA: they are night and day. They both are equivalent to BC calc, are the “regular “ versions (the ivy has an even more difficult proof based version) and they cover almost the same topics, yet the ivy has several topics not in the state school curriculum, and the psets /quizzes/exams are much different, with the ivy much more difficult . For people who study math or are in mathematics-heavy fields, it is not subtle how much harder the ivy is. I do not have one at UVA to know where uva falls on the spectrum of difficulty.

Where is the actual evidence?

The commonness of extremely rigorous proof-based math courses intended for first semester students at top universities, compared to their rarity elsewhere. Just about every T20 has one.

You can also look at the finals for the lowest level, easiest math courses (which are often several levels below the most rigorous freshman classes):

Precalc final at Princeton: https://exams.math.princeton.edu/syllabus/mat103/precalculus

One-semester combined calc 1 and 2 final at MIT: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/18-01sc-single-variable-calculus-fall-2010/pages/final-exam/

Calc 2 final at Princeton: https://web.math.princeton.edu/~nelson/104/F02ans.pdf

DP. We reviewed syllabi when our first was applying to colleges, at the urging of our college professor family member who has taught at T10s and T55-60. The course offerings are more rigorous, indeed as pointed out by other posters above and on other threads , at almost all T20s. Not sure why this is surprising to anyone. The student body makeup skews much further to the top-1% students; these students are the future of intellectual thought in whatever fields they choose. Of course the top schools need these courses, and their “regular “ intro courses are also more rigorous. The vast majority of professors are about the same—it is the student level that determines how hard the professors can push the pace and depth of coursework

You'd be surprised by how underwhelming the math talent is at most T20s. It's just that Princeton swallows all the students interested in math academia and MIT the competitive math students. Harvard has math geniuses, but they're 2% of the math students. The rest are very very average.

You’re missing the point.
The average student in average math are not “average”. I have kids at ivies and spouse and I went ourselves. The average student has gotten much smarter since we attended. It is very different than what our siblings and nephews have experienced at lesser schools that are not close toT30.

You're missing nuance. UChicago is not in the Ivy League yet their honors analysis sequence (which is formally open to qualified freshmen) is graduate level and at least on par with if not harder than math 55.

On the flip side, UMD is outside the T30 but still has the type of proof based calc 3+ linear algebra courses (340+341) that Cornell does (2230+2240)

Some people in this thread don’t get how many paths there are to coursework at any college, not just ivies. If you come in with BC calc, you have a lot of options at most colleges in the US

PP here, I wouldn't say "most" - outside the top 100, I haven't found a single proof based linear algebra + multivariable calculus freshman sequence like UMD and UVA have, and outside T30 I've only seen them at large state flagships which have both a large student population and a significant minority of extremely strong students who are often there for the in state tuition.

There are 3000 colleges in the US. Rigor of course offerings is correlated to student body: when 1/3-1/2 come in with exposure to post-BC calculus, as they do at the ivy/plus schools, those colleges have to offer more depth. Same with physics and chemistry and foreign languages. The syllabi and course progression differences is evident in many subjects. It is no surprise that T100 level schools do not offer the same education as the elites: the vast majority of the 3000 colleges do not. Kudos to UVA and UMD and other top large flagships for covering the math need and many other needs of the topmost students who attend. There is a reason academically highly gifted students chase the ivy-plus schools: the course depth and intensity plus smaller class sizes compared to the large top flagships is the best fit for a significant subset of them. DCUM seems to think it is all about finance career networking and wealthy peers(with less than 50% full pay now, the wealth is quite diluted compared to the 90s). For many it is about the specifics of the education.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

No…literally at Princeton there was a class with that title…still there anyone?

It was not considered a challenging course.

occasional dumbed-down compared to normal princeton classes happens at all elites. These classes in a T100 college would be considered normal difficulty. They are taught at elites because of the recruited athletes: that is who fills the majority of them, and the athlete tutor/course advisors push them into these unless they are actually bright athletes who are similar to the average student. Many helmet-sport and basketball athletes have SAT scores around 1100, and are not be able to handle normal elite courses: they have a couple easier courses in all disciplines to allow them to get through with a 3.3 (far below ivy medians). Occasionally a pre-law who detests stem will take Rocks for Jocks, for example, for the easy A, though it is not possible to use that course for anything other than elective credit if one is a stem major. However that Geology class uses the same text as they use at the state flagship for their earth science major requirement. The elite requires earth sci majors to do much more chem, bio, physics and math than the flagship. It is all relative. "Dumb" ivy courses are not watered down when compared to average-US-college courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just happy that people aren’t putting 3 at the top. There’s too many PhDs coming out of the Ivy league, let alone the rest of the T50, to even begin suggesting that there’s some extreme difference in education. Unless your kid is on the bounds and is highly highly intelligent (like top 0.001%) where they need specialized/accelerated instruction to the level of grad school near freshman year, you’re probably receiving a very similar education to others.

Even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities

Cite?

https://math.cornell.edu/lower-level-courses (scroll to bottom)

https://pi.math.cornell.edu/~allenk/courses/14/2230/

Compre this to the freshman math options at most other lower ranked schools (e.g. any VA school besides UVA)

I don't think this is true.

What do you mean? I just gave a task to compare the courses yourself; you can't disagree with that. If you want to refute me, find a comparable course at a VA school outside UVA (or MD school outside MD, etc), ignoring other elite schools of course.

In the thread it was asserted that "even a standard freshman course like math 2230 at Cornell will exceed the level of rigor of any freshman math course at most lower ranked universities. This was asserted without evidence so it can also be dismissed without evidence. The burden is not on me.

The evidence is that in VA, a state with many strong universities, only UVA (the highest ranking school) has a comparable freshman math course.

Show us the courses that you say are and aren't comparable.

The comparable course sequence is 1315/3315 at UVA. Even 2315 uses Williamson and Trotter, which is easier than Cornell's text by Hubbard and Hubbard, but they still are comparable. Every other freshman math sequence at every other VA school is not comparable.

What makes the standards at VT, W&M, W&L etc. lower in your view?

I don't know about the standards for the comparable courses (although I doubt they're at the level of the Ivy+ basic calculus classes I linked above), but the reason I said their sequences are not conpara is because none of them have a proof-based multivariable calculus and linear algebra freshman math sequence like Cornell (and similarly ranked institutions) and UVA (and UGA and UMD as a matter of fact).

You may use this as a canary in the coal mine for rigor throughout the later years of the math program - if you have such a rigorous course for freshmen, you likely have further upper level courses to challenge that course's graduates as sophomores and juniors.

Strongly agree. The most rigorous courses and offerings are located at the top 15 or 20 universities, and it applies across disciplines, not just math, though quantitative courses can be easier to compare. In humanities if one can get access to syllabi, the number and breadth of primary source use along with the textbook(s), as well as writing requirements: literature-cited writing expected throughout the semester not just one end of term paper. There are fluff classes at top universities too, but it is all relative: even the occasional easy ones are typically on par with a "normal" difficulty class at a typical non-T50 state school.

The humanities point is really moot. Essay expectations are higher, but there are plenty of top schools with light reading requirements. DC goes to Harvard and barely has to pick up a book for some of the humanities course work. It's a lot of talking about feelings of short texts these days.

Put another way…every university has “gut” classes that kids will seek out to fulfill a requirement where you have little interest.

The internet has reviews for every class, so you know which classes have more work than others.

It’s no different than the humanities majors picking Physics for poets to satisfy their science requirement.

Eh, there is no "physics for poets." Physics is just hard...

No…literally at Princeton there was a class with that title…still there anyone?

It was not considered a challenging course.

occasional dumbed-down compared to normal princeton classes happens at all elites. These classes in a T100 college would be considered normal difficulty. They are taught at elites because of the recruited athletes: that is who fills the majority of them, and the athlete tutor/course advisors push them into these unless they are actually bright athletes who are similar to the average student. Many helmet-sport and basketball athletes have SAT scores around 1100, and are not be able to handle normal elite courses: they have a couple easier courses in all disciplines to allow them to get through with a 3.3 (far below ivy medians). Occasionally a pre-law who detests stem will take Rocks for Jocks, for example, for the easy A, though it is not possible to use that course for anything other than elective credit if one is a stem major. However that Geology class uses the same text as they use at the state flagship for their earth science major requirement. The elite requires earth sci majors to do much more chem, bio, physics and math than the flagship. It is all relative. "Dumb" ivy courses are not watered down when compared to average-US-college courses.

The earth sciences are dominated by state schools with top climatology, physics, and chemistry programs. You're speaking out of your ass as someone who works in industry for the geosciences. I'm not taking some random guy from Princeton unless it's Harry Hess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) Status symbol that reflects intellect and ambition

2) Networking opportunities for graduate school, jobs, and more

3) Quality of education that includes instruction from noted academics

4) Recruiting opportunities, including Wall Street and high-end consulting companies

5) Family tradition to go to a particular school or type of school

6) Student quality, including smarts, wealth, celebrity, and more

3 and only 3