Law School

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a parent, my 1st question is how hard or is it possible to get scholarships/FA from a top 14 law school? DC is attending college in the fall at a top SLAC and is aspiring to study environmental science, law and public policies. Any advice will be appreciated!

Not OP, but I got one at Georgetown. My sense of what were the contributing factors: (1) high LSAT (174); (2) hard-core major (math); (3) good undergrad grades; and (4) documented interest in a particular specialty (law & econ/antitrust).

Other people had better LSAT scores and better grades than I did, so it was not just about those two numbers.

Georgetown law school is well known for awarding lots of merit scholarships to both incoming first year law students as well as to transfer law students.

The top 3 law schools (Yale, Stanford, & Harvard) do not award merit scholarships, but these law schools do award need based financial aid.

I don't disagree, but the poster asked about T-14, which includes Georgetown.

No, Georgetown is T15. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/georgetown-university-03032

The schools at 14-16 move around pretty frequently. It’s why a student with high stats is more likely to get a merit scholarship from these schools. They’re constantly competing to improve their rankings.

No they don’t. There is a significant drop off at T14 which is why the Dean and others keep referring to it.

This is ridiculous. The difference between 14-17 is meaningless. Those schools are always moving around.

Not in today's law and nomenclature. https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/bid-211356-why-are-the-top-14-law-schools-called-the-top-14/. Talk to any student trying to get into law schoool; it's all T14 or bust if they can do it.

I don’t have to talk to a law student. I have been in BigLaw and active in interviewing/hiring law students my entire career. Pp is correct, and you are wrong. “T-14” is shorthand for “top law schools,” but it is not that cut and dried in the real world. Georgetown, e.g., has gone in and out of the “T-14.” It doesn’t suddenly become less desirable at 15. Nor does going to a school like Vanderbilt or UT Austin give you a significantly different result. At the same time, there is a distance between 1-4 or so and 14. Is it better to go to the highest ranked school you can? Sure. Does it suddenly become pointless to go to Georgetown because it’s ranked 15 this year? Of course not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent, my 1st question is how hard or is it possible to get scholarships/FA from a top 14 law school? DC is attending college in the fall at a top SLAC and is aspiring to study environmental science, law and public policies. Any advice will be appreciated!

Not OP, but I got one at Georgetown. My sense of what were the contributing factors: (1) high LSAT (174); (2) hard-core major (math); (3) good undergrad grades; and (4) documented interest in a particular specialty (law & econ/antitrust).

Other people had better LSAT scores and better grades than I did, so it was not just about those two numbers.

Georgetown law school is well known for awarding lots of merit scholarships to both incoming first year law students as well as to transfer law students.

The top 3 law schools (Yale, Stanford, & Harvard) do not award merit scholarships, but these law schools do award need based financial aid.

I don't disagree, but the poster asked about T-14, which includes Georgetown.

No, Georgetown is T15. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/georgetown-university-03032

The schools at 14-16 move around pretty frequently. It’s why a student with high stats is more likely to get a merit scholarship from these schools. They’re constantly competing to improve their rankings.

No they don’t. There is a significant drop off at T14 which is why the Dean and others keep referring to it.

This is ridiculous. The difference between 14-17 is meaningless. Those schools are always moving around.

Not in today's law and nomenclature. https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/bid-211356-why-are-the-top-14-law-schools-called-the-top-14/. Talk to any student trying to get into law schoool; it's all T14 or bust if they can do it.

I don’t have to talk to a law student. I have been in BigLaw and active in interviewing/hiring law students my entire career. Pp is correct, and you are wrong. “T-14” is shorthand for “top law schools,” but it is not that cut and dried in the real world. Georgetown, e.g., has gone in and out of the “T-14.” It doesn’t suddenly become less desirable at 15. Nor does going to a school like Vanderbilt or UT Austin give you a significantly different result. At the same time, there is a distance between 1-4 or so and 14. Is it better to go to the highest ranked school you can? Sure. Does it suddenly become pointless to go to Georgetown because it’s ranked 15 this year? Of course not.

Former Biglaw partner here. I disagree. I believe it is generally understood in big law that Georgetown is a better school than Vanderbilt. It is certainly more selective.

[Anonymous]

Retired attorney. If one of my kids should become interested in law school, I would generally frame the goal as T14 or bust. (I have no opinion on Georgetown, other than to agree with the PP that if I were advising my child, Georgetown > Vandy.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent, my 1st question is how hard or is it possible to get scholarships/FA from a top 14 law school? DC is attending college in the fall at a top SLAC and is aspiring to study environmental science, law and public policies. Any advice will be appreciated!

Not OP, but I got one at Georgetown. My sense of what were the contributing factors: (1) high LSAT (174); (2) hard-core major (math); (3) good undergrad grades; and (4) documented interest in a particular specialty (law & econ/antitrust).

Other people had better LSAT scores and better grades than I did, so it was not just about those two numbers.

Georgetown law school is well known for awarding lots of merit scholarships to both incoming first year law students as well as to transfer law students.

The top 3 law schools (Yale, Stanford, & Harvard) do not award merit scholarships, but these law schools do award need based financial aid.

I don't disagree, but the poster asked about T-14, which includes Georgetown.

No, Georgetown is T15. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/georgetown-university-03032

The schools at 14-16 move around pretty frequently. It’s why a student with high stats is more likely to get a merit scholarship from these schools. They’re constantly competing to improve their rankings.

No they don’t. There is a significant drop off at T14 which is why the Dean and others keep referring to it.

This is ridiculous. The difference between 14-17 is meaningless. Those schools are always moving around.

Not in today's law and nomenclature. https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/bid-211356-why-are-the-top-14-law-schools-called-the-top-14/. Talk to any student trying to get into law schoool; it's all T14 or bust if they can do it.

Not the kids I’m talking to. They’re factoring in quality of life. And yes, turned down 14 for one slightly lower.

Then you ran into some naive kids.

Not at all. They don’t think DC Big Law is the end-all be-all of a career goal. For everyone here who claims big law or bust, there is also a miserable big law associate questioning their choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired attorney. If one of my kids should become interested in law school, I would generally frame the goal as T14 or bust. (I have no opinion on Georgetown, other than to agree with the PP that if I were advising my child, Georgetown > Vandy.)

In my view, the goal should be more refined as COA (cost of attendance) is important. Some Top 14 law schools are worth paying full tuition, while others are not. Depends upon how deep into the class biglaw firms are willing to go when hiring from a specific law school.

I would restate the goal as Top 13 law school, or Georgetown with a sizeable scholarship, or any full tuition scholarship at a well respected law school in the geographic region where you plan to live & work after finishing law school.

[Exlawdean]

Anonymous wrote:My child did quite well throughout college and completed an undergraduate degree in political science six years ago.

After working in various jobs that were (mostly) policy related, said child decided to apply to law school, was accepted to a DC area program, and began their first semester last fall.

However, there were some bumps in the road during that first semester…aside from getting acclimated to the “newness” of law school, there was a 7 day absence due to an illness that required hospitalization; difficulty getting help with legal writing assignments from the school; and the unavailability of required medication that was needed for concentration. As a result, the fall semester grades weren’t great and an academic dismissal was issued.

This came as a complete surprise to my child (and to us as well), but I investigated and found out the story we got was indeed accurate. Our child appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

Are first semester dismissals typical in law school? I would have thought that academic probation would have been the first step, especially given the handful of challenges that were experienced during the semester.

My husband and I are very upset by this, but our child is devastated. We think it was an extreme measure, but we’re not really sure of how to advise our child to address it, assuming it even should be addressed. The dismissal letter that was provided had a line that read, “we encourage you to reapply for admission.,” but I’m not sure if that was a genuine statement. It seemed strange to dismiss a student from school and encourage them to return all in the same letter.

We think this child is capable of successfully managing and completing law school (our other child is not), and they would like to continue working toward a law degree. Would you be able to offer any suggestions on possible next steps? Would switching to another school be feasible? How do most law students proceed in cases like this?

Thank you for any insight you can offer.

On the facts that you have given, the school's action seems unusual and more than a bit harsh. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the grades were extremely low. In such a circumstance, when I was dean I likely would have offered up a "reset," a chance to start the first year, again, on a clean slate. Perhaps that is what the quoted language means. If so, the most obvious strategy is to reapply for admission, try to stay healthy, and perform better on the tests next year. I wish you and yours the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a parent, my 1st question is how hard or is it possible to get scholarships/FA from a top 14 law school? DC is attending college in the fall at a top SLAC and is aspiring to study environmental science, law and public policies. Any advice will be appreciated!

Not OP, but I got one at Georgetown. My sense of what were the contributing factors: (1) high LSAT (174); (2) hard-core major (math); (3) good undergrad grades; and (4) documented interest in a particular specialty (law & econ/antitrust).

Other people had better LSAT scores and better grades than I did, so it was not just about those two numbers.

Georgetown law school is well known for awarding lots of merit scholarships to both incoming first year law students as well as to transfer law students.

The top 3 law schools (Yale, Stanford, & Harvard) do not award merit scholarships, but these law schools do award need based financial aid.

I don't disagree, but the poster asked about T-14, which includes Georgetown.

No, Georgetown is T15. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/georgetown-university-03032

The schools at 14-16 move around pretty frequently. It’s why a student with high stats is more likely to get a merit scholarship from these schools. They’re constantly competing to improve their rankings.

No they don’t. There is a significant drop off at T14 which is why the Dean and others keep referring to it.

This is ridiculous. The difference between 14-17 is meaningless. Those schools are always moving around.

Not in today's law and nomenclature. https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/bid-211356-why-are-the-top-14-law-schools-called-the-top-14/. Talk to any student trying to get into law schoool; it's all T14 or bust if they can do it.

I don’t have to talk to a law student. I have been in BigLaw and active in interviewing/hiring law students my entire career. Pp is correct, and you are wrong. “T-14” is shorthand for “top law schools,” but it is not that cut and dried in the real world. Georgetown, e.g., has gone in and out of the “T-14.” It doesn’t suddenly become less desirable at 15. Nor does going to a school like Vanderbilt or UT Austin give you a significantly different result. At the same time, there is a distance between 1-4 or so and 14. Is it better to go to the highest ranked school you can? Sure. Does it suddenly become pointless to go to Georgetown because it’s ranked 15 this year? Of course not.

Former Biglaw partner here. I disagree. I believe it is generally understood in big law that Georgetown is a better school than Vanderbilt. It is certainly more selective.

Your info is dated. Vanderbilt’s median GPA is 3.9 and median LSAT is 170 with a 14.5% acceptance rate. Georgetown’s median GPA is 3.8 and median LSAT is 171 with a 17.5% acceptance rate. Those numbers are not appreciably different until you get to #20, which is why USNWR has 7 schools in the 13-16 range. The differences are pretty miniscule.

Georgetown first dropped out of the T-14 post recession when application numbers dropped and they (at least initially) accepted students with lesser qualifications, just to keep their class sizes up. Other schools reduced their class sizes in order to maintain their standards. For example, during the recession, Texas Law dropped their class size from 500 to 300 (now it’s back up to around 420).

But the main point is that I don’t know a firm that would not hire similarly situated Georgetown and Vanderbilt grads.

[Exlawdean]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a retired lawyer following up on the Harvard poster’s criticism of the OP. I’m not a Harvard guy.

I agree with the criticism. I think the OP is out of touch and that much of what he says is demonstrably wrong. I don’t think, for example, that Harvard is now going to start awarding merit scholarships to maintain or move up in the rankings, and neither will the other schools who have boycotted the publication. One of their core stated reasons for the boycott was that it led too many good law schools to award merit aid at the expense of need based aid and that was bad for the system. The boycotting schools aren’t about to reverse course now.

I don't know, with certainty, that any one of the selective law schools that have not given merit aid in the past will start doing so. But I do know that majority of applicants to law school utilize USNWR. Maybe that will change. But without truly massive changes in applicant behavior re USNWR, there will be pressure on schools with falling USNWR rankings to do something. If such schools fail to do something, and students continue to use USNWR rankings to select their law schools, then such schools risk having reality conform to the rankings. The quality of their students will trend towards their new, lower ranking. And, year by year, hiring executives at large firms will start to take this into account. I suspect that some (perhaps not most) selective schools in such a situation will decide to start offering merit scholarships. This is, of course, all theory. In the next five years we can see how this all plays out. Stay tuned.

Interestingly, OP uses Chicago as an example of an elite school that “clearly” gives merit aid, while failing to mention that it’s also the one elite school that didn’t boycott the rankings. So it’s the exception that proves the rule actually. I think you only have part of the story. Approximately years ago U Chicago Law's ranking had fallen to 6, consistently. The quality of students was trending in that direction. The then-dean of law and the President got together and decided to start aggressively using merit scholarships to attract better students and move up in the rankings. It worked. So Chicago is an example of exactly the phenomenon I was describing.

The one thing I will disagree with the Harvard guy about is his claim that Harvard has always been the number one most in demand law school. US news ranking or otherwise, the “number one” distinction belongs to Yale and has for a long time. It is without question, the nation’s most selective law, school and when given the choice between Yale and Harvard, the majority of students accepted to both pick Yale. That is a fact, not conjecture.

[Exlawdean]

Anonymous wrote:It is not necessary to attend and graduate from a Top 14 law school in order to be a successful attorney. The two most important questions regarding which law school to attend is COA/affordability and geographic preference for one's career.

For those who want to live & work in a major US city after law school, then graduating from a Top 14 law school is important for both serious consideration by the nation's most elite law firms and for geographic mobility among major US cities.

For those who are not targeting biglaw law firms or practicing in a major US city in a large law firm, then local or state public flagship law schools are fine due to location and to affordability/low cost of attendance.

Attending a Top 14 law school often requires the student to assume a significant amount of student loan debt which almost necessitates employment in biglaw for several years in order to pay off the substantial student loan debt.

I want to emphasize some of the points in this post, almost all of which are right. Schools outside of the T14 can often place well into top law firms that are in their geographic area. Thus, both UCLA and USC place well into top law firms in Los Angeles and Orange counties. But neither of them places all that well into areas far from Los Angeles. On the other hand, if someone attends Columbia or NYU, they will place very well into top New York firms, and will also place well into Los Angeles area firms. The higher up in the rankings one goes, the greater the ease of geographic mobility. These issues also implicate one's ability to get top public interest jobs. If one looks, for example, at the lawyers for the Natural Resources Defense Council, you will find that they are populated mainly by Yale and Harvard grads, with a smattering of other T8 graduates.

I also agree that an applicant must make a tradeoff between cost of attending school and the professional opportunities and flexibility later on. These are personal decisions, and it is difficult comment beyond that.

[Anonymous]

Exlawdean wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child did quite well throughout college and completed an undergraduate degree in political science six years ago.

After working in various jobs that were (mostly) policy related, said child decided to apply to law school, was accepted to a DC area program, and began their first semester last fall.

However, there were some bumps in the road during that first semester…aside from getting acclimated to the “newness” of law school, there was a 7 day absence due to an illness that required hospitalization; difficulty getting help with legal writing assignments from the school; and the unavailability of required medication that was needed for concentration. As a result, the fall semester grades weren’t great and an academic dismissal was issued.

This came as a complete surprise to my child (and to us as well), but I investigated and found out the story we got was indeed accurate. Our child appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

Are first semester dismissals typical in law school? I would have thought that academic probation would have been the first step, especially given the handful of challenges that were experienced during the semester.

My husband and I are very upset by this, but our child is devastated. We think it was an extreme measure, but we’re not really sure of how to advise our child to address it, assuming it even should be addressed. The dismissal letter that was provided had a line that read, “we encourage you to reapply for admission.,” but I’m not sure if that was a genuine statement. It seemed strange to dismiss a student from school and encourage them to return all in the same letter.

We think this child is capable of successfully managing and completing law school (our other child is not), and they would like to continue working toward a law degree. Would you be able to offer any suggestions on possible next steps? Would switching to another school be feasible? How do most law students proceed in cases like this?

Thank you for any insight you can offer.

On the facts that you have given, the school's action seems unusual and more than a bit harsh. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the grades were extremely low. In such a circumstance, when I was dean I likely would have offered up a "reset," a chance to start the first year, again, on a clean slate. Perhaps that is what the quoted language means. If so, the most obvious strategy is to reapply for admission, try to stay healthy, and perform better on the tests next year. I wish you and yours the best.

PP, is your child at the absolute end of the road with the appeal process? If not, I would encourage him/her to get an attorney and keep trying to change the result.

[Anonymous]

There is sound advice on this thread. T-14 will cost you. If money is no object and parents are footing the bill, then do T-14, if you can get in. If your child will be borrowing all that money to pay for it -- how will it be paid back? If by working in BigLaw, research what that's like. There should be a lot of resources available now with social media, YouTube videos, message boards, etc. Calculate loan repayments and salary needed to make that manageable. Try to research practice areas that interest you....

[Anonymous]

The law professor / ex law dean is offering good advice about law school, but as ex law dean states, ex law dean does not have much experience at all working in the actual legal industry:

Anonymous wrote:
Did you practice law? What area? What type of firm or agency? How long?

"I practiced for a bit less than two years at what was a large commercial firm in Los Angeles in the 1970s, about 2/3 general commercial litigation and 1/3 antitrust. I then became a professor, and worked at that for 43 years."

Just a reminder....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Exlawdean wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child did quite well throughout college and completed an undergraduate degree in political science six years ago.

After working in various jobs that were (mostly) policy related, said child decided to apply to law school, was accepted to a DC area program, and began their first semester last fall.

However, there were some bumps in the road during that first semester…aside from getting acclimated to the “newness” of law school, there was a 7 day absence due to an illness that required hospitalization; difficulty getting help with legal writing assignments from the school; and the unavailability of required medication that was needed for concentration. As a result, the fall semester grades weren’t great and an academic dismissal was issued.

This came as a complete surprise to my child (and to us as well), but I investigated and found out the story we got was indeed accurate. Our child appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

Are first semester dismissals typical in law school? I would have thought that academic probation would have been the first step, especially given the handful of challenges that were experienced during the semester.

My husband and I are very upset by this, but our child is devastated. We think it was an extreme measure, but we’re not really sure of how to advise our child to address it, assuming it even should be addressed. The dismissal letter that was provided had a line that read, “we encourage you to reapply for admission.,” but I’m not sure if that was a genuine statement. It seemed strange to dismiss a student from school and encourage them to return all in the same letter.

We think this child is capable of successfully managing and completing law school (our other child is not), and they would like to continue working toward a law degree. Would you be able to offer any suggestions on possible next steps? Would switching to another school be feasible? How do most law students proceed in cases like this?

Thank you for any insight you can offer.

On the facts that you have given, the school's action seems unusual and more than a bit harsh. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the grades were extremely low. In such a circumstance, when I was dean I likely would have offered up a "reset," a chance to start the first year, again, on a clean slate. Perhaps that is what the quoted language means. If so, the most obvious strategy is to reapply for admission, try to stay healthy, and perform better on the tests next year. I wish you and yours the best.

PP, is your child at the absolute end of the road with the appeal process? If not, I would encourage him/her to get an attorney and keep trying to change the result.

I am the PP/parent of the dismissed 1st semester law student. Thank you to everyone who offered insight and suggestions...they were all very helpful.

A few weeks ago, our child submitted the dismissal appeal and had a hearing with a panel of law professors (or possibly Deans) to explain the circumstances that contributed to the low gpa. Based on the letter received from the school following the hearing, the appeal was denied. However, reapplication (for part-time status) was encouraged, but no timeframe was mentioned. I assume the application would not be considered for the 2023-24 admission cycle, but the letter did not specifically say that. Nor did it specifically say (or imply) that reapplying would guarantee admission.

We are not lawyers, so we don't really know how to advise him...what type of attorney would be able to assist us with this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired attorney. If one of my kids should become interested in law school, I would generally frame the goal as T14 or bust. (I have no opinion on Georgetown, other than to agree with the PP that if I were advising my child, Georgetown > Vandy.)

That's what we're doing. With the costs going up to $111K a year I want to make sure there's a job at the end of three years. and ther are only so many legal jobs around now

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The law professor / ex law dean is offering good advice about law school, but as ex law dean states, ex law dean does not have much experience at all working in the actual legal industry:

Anonymous wrote:
Did you practice law? What area? What type of firm or agency? How long?

"I practiced for a bit less than two years at what was a large commercial firm in Los Angeles in the 1970s, about 2/3 general commercial litigation and 1/3 antitrust. I then became a professor, and worked at that for 43 years."

Just a reminder....

Also, he was Dean from 2000-2006 and is now about 71 years old. There are scores of blogs like Spivey who offer great advice