Luthier for the advancing student?

[Anonymous]

I do realize that Brobst, through the years, has had an impeccable reputation. However, over the last year or so, I've had some mixed experiences, and I'm starting to wonder if the new generation is keeping up with the old standards. So far, I've only been on the maintenance side of the shop, but it's time to upgrade the instrument. I've always assumed we would explore their vast collection, but looking at things a bit close, they seem to be working with professional level violins, or entry level copies of origins not easy to trace. I'm not finding a lot of middle-range choices, and I am starting to be concerned about the advice I am getting.

Wondering what feedback I can gather from others with advancing violinists in the area, and where would you go besides Brobst, as well as any feedback beyond my admittedly narrow insight into Brobst themselves. Still trustworthy? If not, where else do you go?

My budget is under $5000. So we're still looking at the lower end of the range, but would like to find a selection of old violins with great sound and good resale value -- I expect we will have to switch violins as musicianship advances. In this price range, I find a number of smaller scale violins, and a few full size ones with names that don't trace back to a known maker, but sound similar to known luthiers. That gives me some serious doubts about the shop.

Hoping that someone with experience could explain to me why this is ok -- or where else i should consider going. Teacher is fully supportive of Brobst. As I say, they do have a sterling reputation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do realize that Brobst, through the years, has had an impeccable reputation. However, over the last year or so, I've had some mixed experiences, and I'm starting to wonder if the new generation is keeping up with the old standards. So far, I've only been on the maintenance side of the shop, but it's time to upgrade the instrument. I've always assumed we would explore their vast collection, but looking at things a bit close, they seem to be working with professional level violins, or entry level copies of origins not easy to trace. I'm not finding a lot of middle-range choices, and I am starting to be concerned about the advice I am getting.

Wondering what feedback I can gather from others with advancing violinists in the area, and where would you go besides Brobst, as well as any feedback beyond my admittedly narrow insight into Brobst themselves. Still trustworthy? If not, where else do you go?

My budget is under $5000. So we're still looking at the lower end of the range, but would like to find a selection of old violins with great sound and good resale value -- I expect we will have to switch violins as musicianship advances. In this price range, I find a number of smaller scale violins, and a few full size ones with names that don't trace back to a known maker, but sound similar to known luthiers. That gives me some serious doubts about the shop.

Hoping that someone with experience could explain to me why this is ok -- or where else i should consider going. Teacher is fully supportive of Brobst. As I say, they do have a sterling reputation.

Are you looking at their online violins? Fwiw, I wouldn't be put off by violins with labels "similar to known makers" but priced like copies. A copy is perfectly respectable, and by the pricing, there's no dishonesty.

[Anonymous]

Potter, Brobst, and to a lesser extent, Foxes are the shops where you need to go to try out instruments. In that price range, don’t rule out newer violins. Something like a Jay Haide l'ancienne is good value for the money. Keep in mind that even from one maker, instruments can vary drastically, so the important thing is to play lots of violins to find one where you like the playability and sound.

Pretty much everyone tries to copy the old masters - Strad, Del Gesu, Amati, etc. so that’s not disqualifying in any way.

Also keep in mind that you will almost certainly get a bigger bang for your buck by upgrading the bow. Something like a carbon fiber bow from CodaBow, John Paul, or Arcus would probably be a significant upgrade from what your child is currently using. Be sure to try out a combination of bows on your new violin; some pair better than others.

[Anonymous]

One more thing. If you have questions about instruments and valuations, Maestronet is a good place to ask. There are some really wonderful contemporary makers and sellers there.

[Anonymous]

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

$5K for a full-size violin or a fractional?
What pieces is the student currently playing and what is their age?

You are correct that for that price, you should stick to general luthiers like Fox, Potter and Brobst. Go to all 3 to try their violins and bows, there may be one the student prefers above all the others.

It will be a question of fit "student/violin/bow": some bows go better with some violins, and some players prefer the feel of certain bows and certain violins. The student should try several violins and several bows.

Resale value only matters if the luthier does not have a guaranteed consignment for the instruments it sells. You should be able to return it after a few years, and they will take it off your hands on consignment, sell it to someone else (this may take 6 months to a year), and take a commission from you. It will be a hefty one. It's a good idea because it's usually not easy to find buyers yourself.

Don't be offended, but a halfway decent-sounding violin for a beginning professional starts in the 20K range, and goes up to millions for the Stradivarius/Guarneri makers. So at 5K, you're not getting quality. At all. In that context, it doesn't matter whether it's a copy of something, an unknown maker, a violin that looks totally beaten up, etc. Your assessment that you're doubting the shop because you can't recognize the maker is off-base for that price range. A lot are going to be Chinese instruments who are creative with names. And that's fine, because it's what you can afford.

What you're looking for in a violin is decent sound: as full and resonant as possible. No whistles/muffles/choking point anywhere. What you're looking for in a bow is good balance, not too heavy, ability to do staccato and other techniques. If you don't know how to identify all that, take the violins on loan and have the student's teacher try them and give pointers.

[Anonymous]

You should definitely take violins/bows home for a test drive, before you commit to them. Just as an example, my DD is looking to upgrade (from roughly your price point), and she is trying out a gorgeous sounding violin from a modern maker. After a couple of days of playing, her arm started hurting, although the violin is lighter than her current one. I'm fairly certain that this is not a keeper, despite how lovely it sounds.

[Anonymous]

Narrowing them down, and getting the teacher involved without wasting his time is the plan. This is an older teen small/adult-size beginner who is just now starting on the higher positions, so she needs something with plenty room to grow. The dedication to practice is there. She just joined an orchestra as a Violin 2, and there is a heavy load of stacatto / spicatto there. Her standard issue fiberglass bow is heavy -- and tip-heavy, so she reports her bow hand is clenched when she is done with her 2h rehearsal. She's doing fine with intonation and speed on her left hand. I guess all those piano classes when she was young are paying off. A new bow is actually the pressing issue, but I think upgrading her from the rental to a violin that works with the bow makes sense, since she seems to be sticking with the instrument and we're thinking taking her violin shopping would be a nice way to reward her efforts. I am personally not a violin player, and was not actually counting on having one in the family, so I'm learning as fast as i can about the space to keep up with her rapid growth. She's been at it for less than one year, but her progress is impressive, so hopefully she gets a violin that will give her some room to grow for the next few years. Interested to hear if the price range I have in mind is not appropriate.

[Anonymous]

If she has only been learning a year, that price range is more than adequate. DD is an early advanced violinist, been studying for 6 years, and has a violin in that price range (that we're finally thinking about upgrading). Your DD will be fine with a violin + bow setup in the mid 1000s until she's ready for Mendelssohn and beyond.
If she is a small teen, an adult sized violin should still work for her. Mine is a very small young teen, and has been playing on an adult size violin since she was a tween.

[Anonymous]

Thank you everyone! This has been good education / information!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Narrowing them down, and getting the teacher involved without wasting his time is the plan. This is an older teen small/adult-size beginner who is just now starting on the higher positions, so she needs something with plenty room to grow. The dedication to practice is there. She just joined an orchestra as a Violin 2, and there is a heavy load of stacatto / spicatto there. Her standard issue fiberglass bow is heavy -- and tip-heavy, so she reports her bow hand is clenched when she is done with her 2h rehearsal. She's doing fine with intonation and speed on her left hand. I guess all those piano classes when she was young are paying off. A new bow is actually the pressing issue, but I think upgrading her from the rental to a violin that works with the bow makes sense, since she seems to be sticking with the instrument and we're thinking taking her violin shopping would be a nice way to reward her efforts. I am personally not a violin player, and was not actually counting on having one in the family, so I'm learning as fast as i can about the space to keep up with her rapid growth. She's been at it for less than one year, but her progress is impressive, so hopefully she gets a violin that will give her some room to grow for the next few years. Interested to hear if the price range I have in mind is not appropriate.

With this new info:

1. Violin size depends on arm length. Do not force her into a full size if she has short arms, it's going to lead to injuries.
2. Do not buy a fractional size. It's a hassle for resale unless the shop promises to take it back. Keep renting the best quality you can find. Potter's has acceptable quality of rentals in their top line.
3. If you're sure she needs a full size, you can buy, and anywhere from 1K (price of a quality rental) to 10K is fine.
4. As you mentioned, if she's complaining about the bow, she needs to upgrade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Narrowing them down, and getting the teacher involved without wasting his time is the plan. This is an older teen small/adult-size beginner who is just now starting on the higher positions, so she needs something with plenty room to grow. The dedication to practice is there. She just joined an orchestra as a Violin 2, and there is a heavy load of stacatto / spicatto there. Her standard issue fiberglass bow is heavy -- and tip-heavy, so she reports her bow hand is clenched when she is done with her 2h rehearsal. She's doing fine with intonation and speed on her left hand. I guess all those piano classes when she was young are paying off. A new bow is actually the pressing issue, but I think upgrading her from the rental to a violin that works with the bow makes sense, since she seems to be sticking with the instrument and we're thinking taking her violin shopping would be a nice way to reward her efforts. I am personally not a violin player, and was not actually counting on having one in the family, so I'm learning as fast as i can about the space to keep up with her rapid growth. She's been at it for less than one year, but her progress is impressive, so hopefully she gets a violin that will give her some room to grow for the next few years. Interested to hear if the price range I have in mind is not appropriate.

With this new info:

1. Violin size depends on arm length. Do not force her into a full size if she has short arms, it's going to lead to injuries.
2. Do not buy a fractional size. It's a hassle for resale unless the shop promises to take it back. Keep renting the best quality you can find. Potter's has acceptable quality of rentals in their top line.
3. If you're sure she needs a full size, you can buy, and anywhere from 1K (price of a quality rental) to 10K is fine.
4. As you mentioned, if she's complaining about the bow, she needs to upgrade.

I disagree with the advice to not buy a fractional size. At a certain point, if your kid is really serious, the best quality fractional sizes (as well as the ability to select from a range of bows) are going to be available via purchase not rental. Potters offers a really generous buy-back program, so in the end for us it's wound up being an overall better investment to buy than to rent.

[Anonymous]

At that price point, you are looking almost exclusively at a "workshop violins" -- violins made by many hands under the direction (hopefully) of a master luthier. Workshops have existed for many centuries, in many countries. I'd look with an open mind without regard to origin.

At your price point, I think that the shops in this area with the best value for the money are Weaver's (in Bethesda, used to be side by side with Potter's prior to them moving to Takoma Park), and Gailes (in College Park). I haven't looked at how Gailes has been since their founder/owner died, but they used to do an excellent trade in workshop violins, especially restorations of older workshop violins.

If your child has only been learning for a year, your price point is overkill. I would aim for $2,500 or less, possibly even $1,500 or less. You can get a Hiroshi Kono (a nice Japanese workshop violin) for that price; there are also plenty of older violins available at that price point. Reserve $500 to $1,000 to buy a decent bow; a JonPaul or Coda bow will do nicely (carbon fiber), but you might be able to luck into an okay-ish Brazilian workshop bow at that budget.

When your child has advanced sufficiently and has developed personal preferences in their taste in sound, response, and feel, you can trade that instrument in for something that'll probably be $2,500 to $5,000, and unless they decide to play professionally, that will probably do for their lifetime.

[Anonymous]

You may get a great full size Chinese violin under 2k at foxes. The tone is good! It’s good enough for a high school student to play in any school or youth orchestra in DMV area. If you aim a solo at competitive level, then kids in this area usually invest 8k-20k+ on instrument 1k+ on bow, and bam case.