Generic Computer Science question

[Anonymous]

I work in the IT domain as a senior level manager having hired/worked with 100s of programmers over the past 20+ years. A substantial number did not have a CS degree (some from India had various engineering degrees but not CS). Some US educated programmers picked up programming on the job. We deal with COTS products - Salesforce, AWS, etc. and several custom-built apps.

It appears to me that a knowledge of programming languages is what is needed and the motivated, slightly above-average person can pick up most languages, in-depth, in about 6 months. It would probably take less time these days for the more modern languages.

My son wants to apply to study CS in college. Perusing the courses he'd have to study at some of the top schools - Discrete math, Operating systems, Linear algebra, etc - I don't see the programmers in my org. using any of those skills in their day-to-day. I'm sure if someone were coding for a rocket launch or creating a solution like AWS from scratch, or building a new AI platform they may need those things but for the vast majority of programmers who deal with business applications, all it should take are a few courses in logic and programming. If I am right, why then aren't there college programs that target such kids? We could be training a ton of "average" kids as programmers vs. importing those skills.

What am I missing?

[Anonymous]

sounds like business apps, so its not needed. however, if your kid wants to get a foot in the door to FAANG or other high-paying developer jobs a good CS degree will help. When I say good I am saying 250K/year out of college.

[Anonymous]

I don't think kids get CS degrees to become programmers. They want to design the next operating system or programming language or platform, and yes, the rocket launches, etc.

There are 2-year, on line, and IT degrees for the kind of job you describe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think kids get CS degrees to become programmers. They want to design the next operating system or programming language or platform, and yes, the rocket launches, etc.

There are 2-year, on line, and IT degrees for the kind of job you describe.

+1 IT jobs can easily be outsourced for the types of jobs OP is talking about. I have worked in this space for 20+ years. They are all being outsourced. I don't have a CS degree. I got into it from the business side. I'm a logical thinker, and so could easily pick up the programming part. Combined with my business knowledge, it was an easy fit. But, I have not touched code in 10 years. Those jobs are all outsourced. Now I manage the system, and do PM work.

My DC is interested in CS, but we have told him to focus on something else other than generic programming, like cybersecurity, AI, machine learning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in the IT domain as a senior level manager having hired/worked with 100s of programmers over the past 20+ years. A substantial number did not have a CS degree (some from India had various engineering degrees but not CS). Some US educated programmers picked up programming on the job. We deal with COTS products - Salesforce, AWS, etc. and several custom-built apps.

It appears to me that a knowledge of programming languages is what is needed and the motivated, slightly above-average person can pick up most languages, in-depth, in about 6 months. It would probably take less time these days for the more modern languages.

My son wants to apply to study CS in college. Perusing the courses he'd have to study at some of the top schools - Discrete math, Operating systems, Linear algebra, etc - I don't see the programmers in my org. using any of those skills in their day-to-day. I'm sure if someone were coding for a rocket launch or creating a solution like AWS from scratch, or building a new AI platform they may need those things but for the vast majority of programmers who deal with business applications, all it should take are a few courses in logic and programming. If I am right, why then aren't there college programs that target such kids? We could be training a ton of "average" kids as programmers vs. importing those skills.

What am I missing?

Most IT jobs are fairly mundane so you're right. However, I've worked in the field for 30+ years and write AAA video games. I use discrete math and linear algebra routinely.

[Anonymous]

So there are variations you can choose.

Computer Engineering
BS Computer Science
BA Computer Science
Minor in CS
There are also hybrid or combined majors with CS these days

My kid is not interested in low level sutff like operating systems, compliers, networking and comms etc.
Kid is majoring in CS and Design combined major at Northeastern.

[Anonymous]

If you son programs as a hobby, CS is where he should be. If he thinks that he wants to major in CS because he's good at math or that's where the jobs are, then IT is fine. That's kind of the rule of thumb that I use to determine if CS is right for someone. The IT education in college is easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So there are variations you can choose.

Computer Engineering
BS Computer Science
BA Computer Science
Minor in CS
There are also hybrid or combined majors with CS these days

My kid is not interested in low level sutff like operating systems, compliers, networking and comms etc.
Kid is majoring in CS and Design combined major at Northeastern.

BSCS and BACS mean different things at different schools. At Berkeley for example both take the exact same CS courses and even a couple of basic EE classes. THe main difference is additional engineering and science for EECS which isn't really CS related but part of a broader engineering education. A lot of this is useful if you are interested in hardware, but likely 90% will never use any of it.

[Anonymous]

Yes, you can be a very successful programmer without the background of a CS degree. Smart, motivated people can learn stuff and do stuff. Always.

But there is not a single one of those guys who would not be better at their job if they had one.

End period.

[Anonymous]

There's a difference between being able to write code and being able to design software and systems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think kids get CS degrees to become programmers. They want to design the next operating system or programming language or platform, and yes, the rocket launches, etc.

There are 2-year, on line, and IT degrees for the kind of job you describe.

That may be what they want, but a good number end up working on business applications at places like Capital One, Freddie Mac, etc. Not exactly rocket launches. I realize where a "true" CS degree *may* be appropriate/needed but it's not like all of the CS kids end up with such jobs. Most UVA CS kids (for example) are hired by Capital One to work on business applications. The percentage of kids being hired to work on business apps likely trends smaller, the higher the ranking of the CS program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's a difference between being able to write code and being able to design software and systems.

unfortunately no school that I know of teaches that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think kids get CS degrees to become programmers. They want to design the next operating system or programming language or platform, and yes, the rocket launches, etc.

There are 2-year, on line, and IT degrees for the kind of job you describe.

That may be what they want, but a good number end up working on business applications at places like Capital One, Freddie Mac, etc. Not exactly rocket launches. I realize where a "true" CS degree *may* be appropriate/needed but it's not like all of the CS kids end up with such jobs. Most UVA CS kids (for example) are hired by Capital One to work on business applications. The percentage of kids being hired to work on business apps likely trends smaller, the higher the ranking of the CS program.

It's fine that some people are satisfied working on biz apps at Captial One. I guess someone has to do it. Personally, I'd find it boring but to each their own I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a difference between being able to write code and being able to design software and systems.

unfortunately no school that I know of teaches that

DP. Can you name any important software and systems that are engineered and developed by high school graduates?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a difference between being able to write code and being able to design software and systems.

unfortunately no school that I know of teaches that

DP. Can you name any important software and systems that are engineered and developed by high school graduates?

Serenity OS.