Why is the overcrowding issue so complex?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right- like if all the gentrifiers sent their kids to whatever the IB school is for Petworth....it would probably have a similar profile to what, Murch?
There’s nothing special about WOTP schools besides that the parents are high SES. I work with many people with the same demographic/SES profile who live EOTP, but I bought my house WOTP 10 years earlier.

It takes a good principal, good teachers, and engaged families to have a good school.

You can’t just say “education-focused parents, send your kids to the school” and it magically gets to be perfect.

WOTP schools are part of the same DCPS system that assigns principals and teachers no? I actually don’t know how those choices are made but presumably people don’t apply only to work at JKLMM etc

Principals have say in who gets hired for their schools, and the principal’s management ability matters in whether teachers accept and whether they stay for the long haul.

That’s why principals matter tremendously. A good principal can recruit and retain good teachers. Happy, motivated, and supported teachers make a strong school.

I don’t know how principals are assigned, though obviously you can’t make anyone stay somewhere they really don’t want to be.

Principals are done through a process that feels like speed dating but really the central office tends to get what it wants. Candidates can indicate interest in schools, and schools form panels of teachers and parents to interview the candidates. If a school really dislikes someone, downtown is unlikely to force it on them. If a school doesn't match with anyone they get an interim principal or the AP is in charge for a year.

The "it's all the same system" argument just doesn't hold water. Downtown has a lot of discretion and tends to exercise it more generously towards the Wilson pyramid and certain other favorites. That unfairness is part of why the system is dysfunctional, and it is the reason it doesn't seem so bad if you live in Ward 3. See?

So you are saying central office is racist. They very well might be although I have a good friend who works there and she says that the overall sentiment at Central is very much anti-Wilson. It is talked about disparagingly as the so-called white annoying school. In general Central likes compliant parent communities who don’t question their decisions

If this is true, then how can it also be that the WOTP schools are being favored by DCPS? Frankly, I think they succeed in spite of DCPS largely because the kids are largely high SES with educated families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You are underestimating the rest of the city - there are many middle class and UMC families living EOTP (many families of color) living in the string of neighborhoods just east of Rock Creek Park many of whom have been living in those neighborhoods for decades and those numbers have been dramatically boosted by gentrification. But close to none of those folks are attending DCPS facilities EOTP and are finding their way into Deal/Wilson, charters or in some cases privates.

It is worth adding that the two schools everyone are clamoring for up until about 5 years ago in fact had a cohort of low income students but that is no longer the case as the paths to Deal/Wilson have narrowed.

We are not talking moving kids from Crestwood to Anacostia - we are talking about moving them to schools closer to their own neighborhoods.

The math actually isn't that hard and is getting easier by the year.

The school-age population is much poorer than the city as a whole. On the DCPS school profiles page you can see the percentage of kids who are "economically disadvantaged" at each school. Economically disadvantaged is pretty poor, you're talking household income in the twenties for a family of three to the mid-fifties for a family of five. Overall almost 80% of DCPS students are economically disadvantaged. On a school level, once they get beyond a certain threshold they assume that 100% of the kids are disadvantaged. There are only four high schools where the percentage of economically disadvantaged kids isn't 100%: Wilson, and three application schools: Ellington, Walls and Banneker. There's no way you could take those kids and spread them out more to change the makeup of the rest of the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are underestimating the rest of the city - there are many middle class and UMC families living EOTP (many families of color) living in the string of neighborhoods just east of Rock Creek Park many of whom have been living in those neighborhoods for decades and those numbers have been dramatically boosted by gentrification. But close to none of those folks are attending DCPS facilities EOTP and are finding their way into Deal/Wilson, charters or in some cases privates.

It is worth adding that the two schools everyone are clamoring for up until about 5 years ago in fact had a cohort of low income students but that is no longer the case as the paths to Deal/Wilson have narrowed.

We are not talking moving kids from Crestwood to Anacostia - we are talking about moving them to schools closer to their own neighborhoods.

The math actually isn't that hard and is getting easier by the year.

The school-age population is much poorer than the city as a whole. On the DCPS school profiles page you can see the percentage of kids who are "economically disadvantaged" at each school. Economically disadvantaged is pretty poor, you're talking household income in the twenties for a family of three to the mid-fifties for a family of five. Overall almost 80% of DCPS students are economically disadvantaged. On a school level, once they get beyond a certain threshold they assume that 100% of the kids are disadvantaged. There are only four high schools where the percentage of economically disadvantaged kids isn't 100%: Wilson, and three application schools: Ellington, Walls and Banneker. There's no way you could take those kids and spread them out more to change the makeup of the rest of the schools.

So we shouldn't spread out the wealthy kids we should instead reward them by cramming most of them into Wilson?

Underlying your assumptions though is that the other 80% of kids are a lost cause. Maybe some are but no doubt some aren't and I presume some at least would benefit by going to school with a mix of kids.

A false subtext of these discussions is that there is some rich SES mix at Deal & Wilson that needs to be protected when that in fact is really no longer the case.

Also when looking at these numbers it would be helpful to look at the total mix of kids in DC - how many kids are in charters and going private whose attendance at a DCPS school could lower than 80% number and make it feasible to create one or two more desirable MS/HS clusters in DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right- like if all the gentrifiers sent their kids to whatever the IB school is for Petworth....it would probably have a similar profile to what, Murch?
There’s nothing special about WOTP schools besides that the parents are high SES. I work with many people with the same demographic/SES profile who live EOTP, but I bought my house WOTP 10 years earlier.

It takes a good principal, good teachers, and engaged families to have a good school.

You can’t just say “education-focused parents, send your kids to the school” and it magically gets to be perfect.

WOTP schools are part of the same DCPS system that assigns principals and teachers no? I actually don’t know how those choices are made but presumably people don’t apply only to work at JKLMM etc

Principals have say in who gets hired for their schools, and the principal’s management ability matters in whether teachers accept and whether they stay for the long haul.

That’s why principals matter tremendously. A good principal can recruit and retain good teachers. Happy, motivated, and supported teachers make a strong school.

I don’t know how principals are assigned, though obviously you can’t make anyone stay somewhere they really don’t want to be.

Principals are done through a process that feels like speed dating but really the central office tends to get what it wants. Candidates can indicate interest in schools, and schools form panels of teachers and parents to interview the candidates. If a school really dislikes someone, downtown is unlikely to force it on them. If a school doesn't match with anyone they get an interim principal or the AP is in charge for a year.

The "it's all the same system" argument just doesn't hold water. Downtown has a lot of discretion and tends to exercise it more generously towards the Wilson pyramid and certain other favorites. That unfairness is part of why the system is dysfunctional, and it is the reason it doesn't seem so bad if you live in Ward 3. See?

So you are saying central office is racist. They very well might be although I have a good friend who works there and she says that the overall sentiment at Central is very much anti-Wilson. It is talked about disparagingly as the so-called white annoying school. In general Central likes compliant parent communities who don’t question their decisions

If this is true, then how can it also be that the WOTP schools are being favored by DCPS? Frankly, I think they succeed in spite of DCPS largely because the kids are largely high SES with educated families.

The point is that WOTP schools are not being favored. DC rightly or wrongly distributes $ based on per pupil funding. Wilson has 2000 students. It is the largest HS in DC although average/small by suburban standards. Anacostia HS has around 200 students which is way too small for a HS. Wilson is able to achieve economies of scale that is just not feasible. Wilson can keep its librarian because it overall has more money to play around with. It is hard for Anacostia HS to justify paying a librarian for 200 students. Look all over MD and VA - you will not find such tiny middle and high schools. That is because it is very difficult to provide all the opportunities that kids need at these underenrolled tiny schools. Ballou and Anacostia should be combined into one bigger school but that is apparently off the table because of neighborhood gang rivalries.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I meant that Wilson benefits from economies of scale that Anacostia HS cannot take advantage of. It has nothing to do with favouritism of Wilson over Anacostia. I’m not enough of an expert to know if this is standard practice all over the US for funding schools. DC has set up a very inefficient system and there is no political will to change anything

[Anonymous]

[quote

The point is that WOTP schools are not being favored. DC rightly or wrongly distributes $ based on per pupil funding. Wilson has 2000 students. It is the largest HS in DC although average/small by suburban standards. Anacostia HS has around 200 students which is way too small for a HS. Wilson is able to achieve economies of scale that is just not feasible. Wilson can keep its librarian because it overall has more money to play around with. It is hard for Anacostia HS to justify paying a librarian for 200 students. Look all over MD and VA - you will not find such tiny middle and high schools. That is because it is very difficult to provide all the opportunities that kids need at these underenrolled tiny schools. Ballou and Anacostia should be combined into one bigger school but that is apparently off the table because of neighborhood gang rivalries.

Great points and this is an issue at the MS level as well.

It is hard to have a adequate or at least cost effective electives and extra curriculars with a small student body. Are you going to hire separate French and Spanish teachers and pay them a full salary to each teach one class a day? Meanwhile Deal has 4 full time spanish teachers per grade.

Most of the underenrolled MS and HS also have trouble fielding sports teams - most HS have no JV teams at all and regularly forfeit even their varsity games because they don't have enough kids. Deal meanwhile has 120 kids trying out for 20 spots on the baseball team and then the team barely gets to play any games because the other schools can't field a team.

You don't need 2000 kids in a high school to reach an economy of scale and field a full slate of teams but you need way more than 200 so this is another example of where cramming so many kids into Deal/Wilson is bad for both the kids who get in and the kids who don't and on top of that costs a lot of extra money for sub optimal outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to recommend again this article:
https://ggwash.org/view/71802/can-dcps-survive-the-coming-enrollment-surge

Money quote:

For most of the past 50 years, DC Public Schools (DCPS) has had way too many schools, and the most pressing facilities issue for the agency has been how to close and dispose of unneeded buildings in an orderly manner. Even though DC has gained over 22,000 public school students since 2008, and between 2008 and 2013 DCPS shrunk from 134 to 110 schools, the number of seats still exceeds the number of students by about 25%.

Today, DCPS has a capacity of 61,925 seats and only 48,043 students, according to the Master Facilities Plan. However, if the projections hold, by 2027 – which is only eight years away – DCPS will have 61,697 students. For the first time in 60 years—two generations—DCPS is going to be full. And it's likely going to grow from there.

This.

I have asked DCPS head leadership about this, and they had absolutely no answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's complex because OOB families want feeder rights. And there are a lot of OOB families, all over the city, pushing their councilmembers to preserve feeder rights. Whereas the people who want to end feeder rights are clustered in Ward 3, meaning 7 other ward reps can ignore them and the at-large councilmembers can win an election without their support.

I think feeder rights should end: if you get into an ES OOB, you have a right to stay there through 5th. That would also help many EOTP schools where people are happy but leave for a better MS feed, and it would be good for people who move to DC when their kids are a little older. As a compromise, students from feeder schools could get a lottery preference if they want to go to their destination school. Better would be if it were an at-risk feeder preference and then a non-at-risk. They could also phase out the preference over time: kids in grades 3-8 and when the rules change have feeder rights, kids in PK3-2 have feeder preference, kids not yet at an OOB school have no right or preference and their parents can lottery accordingly.

And yes, on top of this route Bancroft to MacFarland and Roosevelt. Either send Adams to Roosevelt too, or make Oyster-Adams a PK3-5 school across two campuses (like Peabody and Watkins) and send the middle schoolers to MacFarland too. All the dual language schools should have the same feeder pattern. This would also allow for more seats in bilingual programs and more PK classrooms WOTP where there are long waitlists now.

make all high schools lottery and eliminate the concept of inbounds- there, crowding at the high school level gets alleviated and Wilson becomes more diverse

Imagine only getting a spot at Ballau and your get is WOTP! That’ll never happen!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's complex because OOB families want feeder rights. And there are a lot of OOB families, all over the city, pushing their councilmembers to preserve feeder rights. Whereas the people who want to end feeder rights are clustered in Ward 3, meaning 7 other ward reps can ignore them and the at-large councilmembers can win an election without their support.

I think feeder rights should end: if you get into an ES OOB, you have a right to stay there through 5th. That would also help many EOTP schools where people are happy but leave for a better MS feed, and it would be good for people who move to DC when their kids are a little older. As a compromise, students from feeder schools could get a lottery preference if they want to go to their destination school. Better would be if it were an at-risk feeder preference and then a non-at-risk. They could also phase out the preference over time: kids in grades 3-8 and when the rules change have feeder rights, kids in PK3-2 have feeder preference, kids not yet at an OOB school have no right or preference and their parents can lottery accordingly.

And yes, on top of this route Bancroft to MacFarland and Roosevelt. Either send Adams to Roosevelt too, or make Oyster-Adams a PK3-5 school across two campuses (like Peabody and Watkins) and send the middle schoolers to MacFarland too. All the dual language schools should have the same feeder pattern. This would also allow for more seats in bilingual programs and more PK classrooms WOTP where there are long waitlists now.

make all high schools lottery and eliminate the concept of inbounds- there, crowding at the high school level gets alleviated and Wilson becomes more diverse

Imagine only getting a spot at Ballau and your get is WOTP! That’ll never happen!

*Ballou*

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to recommend again this article:
https://ggwash.org/view/71802/can-dcps-survive-the-coming-enrollment-surge

Money quote:

For most of the past 50 years, DC Public Schools (DCPS) has had way too many schools, and the most pressing facilities issue for the agency has been how to close and dispose of unneeded buildings in an orderly manner. Even though DC has gained over 22,000 public school students since 2008, and between 2008 and 2013 DCPS shrunk from 134 to 110 schools, the number of seats still exceeds the number of students by about 25%.

Today, DCPS has a capacity of 61,925 seats and only 48,043 students, according to the Master Facilities Plan. However, if the projections hold, by 2027 – which is only eight years away – DCPS will have 61,697 students. For the first time in 60 years—two generations—DCPS is going to be full. And it's likely going to grow from there.

This.

I have asked DCPS head leadership about this, and they had absolutely no answer.

Well, they are keeping their cards close, but as I understand it their plan is to reactivate unused space that they do own (Emery, Washington Met, Spingarn, etc.), Build new or buy buildings where they can, and reboundary or create multi-building schools like Peabody/Watkins. Expensive, yes, but it isn't that complicated.

[Anonymous]

Actually, I got the distinct impression that they had no plan.
That the chancellor plans to tick this line on his resume (“Chancellor of Big Urban System”) and then sell out and take a charter exec job. And that no one high up in DCPS really has any vision for 4+ years from now.