Translating in Class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

American kid's should not be inconvenienced by others who came illegally. And yeah if a kid shows up in the 5th grade without a word of English spoken, he/she is a 'new arrival' likely of the kind without documents

But the real question is... can they use apostrophes correctly?

Seriously. Were there too many ESOL students in your class the day the teacher tried to teach you about plural nouns?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My bilingual child has a child in her class who doesn’t speak English. I’m thrilled about it because it gives my daughter a chance to practice her second language, be a helper, and get positive attention for knowing/using her second language (she’s reluctant sometimes). All of the kids pitch in to try to help. Terrible thing for kids to put their own stuff aside to help someone else, right?

To a point, sure. It is good for kids to learn about helping others. But at some point, it is reasonable for "their own stuff" -- i.e., the class as a whole being able to learn in class without a unreasonable level of disruption - to take priority over the needs of an individual student.

And it is great for you and your daughter that this student happens to speak your language so your daughter gets the benefits you mentioned. But would you be so positive about it if the ESOL spoke some other language and some other kid -- not your daughter -- got the benefit of being able to help out and practice their second language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

American kid's should not be inconvenienced by others who came illegally. And yeah if a kid shows up in the 5th grade without a word of English spoken, he/she is a 'new arrival' likely of the kind without documents

No way is English your native language. This is a simple plural. No possessive in sight.

But speaking as an ESOL teacher in a DCC high school, yes, most kids are here illegally, particularly the ones from Central America. They are illiterate even if they say they attended up to 8th grade in their country. We have "Spanish for Spanish speakers" classes and they do abysmally in reading, writing, grammar, etc., even in Spanish. I minored in Spanish in college and I am constancy correcting their verb tenses when they speak. They are, in effect, hillbillies. These are not diplomats' kids. Many of the HS students have only a year or two of elementary education, and they do mostly drop out. There are not enough resources to teach a 15 year old how to add 3 + 2 (not kidding).

No, I was born in the U.S. My autocorrect likes to add apostrophes and otherwise change words i've written just to keep things interesting.

So given what is in PP, how is this not a drain on our resources?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No, I was born in the U.S. My autocorrect likes to add apostrophes and otherwise change words i've written just to keep things interesting.

So given what is in PP, how is this not a drain on our resources?

I think that everything that does not directly benefit my own kids is a drain on our resources.

(Actually, no, I don't think that.)

[Anonymous]

Say all you want, folks, but this is a VERY inefficient use of time. If one child requires that much assistance, s/he is not in the right setting.

While we preach about least restrictive environments, the other children in the class are losing instructional time. Add up the minutes.

ESOL classes are leveled. If a child doesn't know any English, s/he is not mainstreamed in the core content areas. Electives, like PE and art, can more easily accommodate second language learners. But core subjects that are tested are high-stakes.

What about reading groups in this case? Understanding the nuances of a text - both fiction and non-fiction - isn't easy if the language is unknown to the reader.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My bilingual child has a child in her class who doesn’t speak English. I’m thrilled about it because it gives my daughter a chance to practice her second language, be a helper, and get positive attention for knowing/using her second language (she’s reluctant sometimes). All of the kids pitch in to try to help. Terrible thing for kids to put their own stuff aside to help someone else, right?

What if your daughter did NOT know a second language? pure "luck" in this case and not necessarily a "solution" to OP's problem


Collaboration is one thing; holding up instructional time to accommodate one child is not a collaborative measure, however. The teacher is stuck, I assume, and the school clearly doesn't know what it's doing.

My daughter had a student in her history class who didn't know English. Her teacher (middle school), however, didn't pause to translate. When they were grouped, my daughter said no one could communicate with him. So he just sat there. When they presented, he was given a small task to handle. Eventually, he started to act out b/c he became more and more frustrated.

This situation benefited no one.

As the daughter of two immigrants who learned English the "hard way," I have empathy - but if this situation accommodates the needs of ONE child while holding back the others, it's not working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS teacher here, most times these kids are not literate in Spanish because they come from poor countries seeking a better life. Which means their families are barely literate and they often have had little to no formal education in their own language. Similar to poor minority children here who speak broken english due to their circumstances. The illegal immigrants coming here have no formal education, many times it’s generationally. It’s not the legal immigrants who are sucking up ESOL services because the legal ones usually have had enough formal education to go through the US legal process by-themselves or with a company. Many legal immigrants are white collar workers. Let’s not pretend that these children and their families are literate. OP, do something now, document everything and push the principal and teacher to change their practices. If not go up the email chain. MCPS will usually create a policy in the background for professional staff in the background, even if you think it’s rolling along slow.

Posting-in-bold-MCPS-teacher PP, I think it's particularly disturbing that you as a teacher characterize the language spoken by "poor minority children" (I'm assuming that you mean poor US-born black children?) as "broken English". It's not. "Broken English", charitably, is English spoken by a non-native speaker. But poor-US-born black children children are native English speakers. It's just that the version of English they speak isn't Standard American English.

If you're interested, here is a good piece you could read that addresses the issue from both a linguistic and a teaching perspective:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-code-switcher/554099/

If you're not interested, of course, then you're not interested.

Code-switching is nothing new. You act as if the PP has no clue. As as an ELA teacher, I've been dealing with dialects of all kinds for over 20 years.

the difference? If proper English isn't supported at home (much like any other language learned), transference doesn't occur.

METS kids are illiterate in their own language, as they have never received formal schooling. So newly arrived METS kids are, for the most part, eager to learn, as there's more opportunity here. Furthermore, they are in small, contained classrooms with trained teachers who can introduce foundational skills and build from there.

African American "ebonics" (a term which is no longer used) is a dialect that has become acceptable in the U. S. However, similar to other countries, once you're out of your "area," the standard language - and NOT the dialect - is used. I can't tell you how often I slipped back into the dialect while traveling throughout my parents' home country. And I was called on it immediately.

We just have more patience in the U.S., which makes it more difficult to code-switch. Furthermore, b/c we've become lazy with grammar, most kids don't understand syntax in standard English. My daughter learned more about language in her Italian and Latin classes, as she certainly wasn't studying grammar in her English classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This happened in DC's class at a school in VA. I wasn't pleased at all. It wastes class time and yes, the kid translated everything the teacher said (not just emergency info as someone eluded to upthread). This method isn't fair to either kid (why would a child be tasked with instruction of concepts they are learning themselves?!?)

Back in my day, ESOL was a separate set of classes where those who don't speak English get sent to separate classrooms. Why don't they still do that?

They do. I teach ESOL students and if they are beginners or lower proficiency levels, I pull them for 45 mins- 1 hour per day. This is at the elementary school level. We are not allowed to take them out of math, specials/resource classes or lunch. So I am trying to pull my caseload of appr. 40 students out of a limited time frame (basically only ELA, science or social studies). So even beginner ESOL students are in class for 6 hours per day when they are not with me. We cannot remove them from their English speaking peers all day and it also wouldn't be a good idea on many different levels. In a school with fewer ESOL students, a traveling ESOL teacher might pull them less frequently because they service students in 5+ different schools. in high school, ESOL might be a separate class if there are enough ESOL students in the school but it is only for one class period per day. If parents waive the right to ESOL services, students won't receive any ESOL services at all.

Some ESOL 1 and 2 students in MCPS MS are in a separate class for part of the day. This isn’t even counting METS for kids with interrupted schooling. I’m thinking of Israeli kids at Tilden who might be in a double period ESOL for the first year. It replaces their English and SS classes. The rest of the day, they are in regular classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS teacher here, most times these kids are not literate in Spanish because they come from poor countries seeking a better life. Which means their families are barely literate and they often have had little to no formal education in their own language. Similar to poor minority children here who speak broken english due to their circumstances. The illegal immigrants coming here have no formal education, many times it’s generationally. It’s not the legal immigrants who are sucking up ESOL services because the legal ones usually have had enough formal education to go through the US legal process by-themselves or with a company. Many legal immigrants are white collar workers. Let’s not pretend that these children and their families are literate. OP, do something now, document everything and push the principal and teacher to change their practices. If not go up the email chain. MCPS will usually create a policy in the background for professional staff in the background, even if you think it’s rolling along slow.

Posting-in-bold-MCPS-teacher PP, I think it's particularly disturbing that you as a teacher characterize the language spoken by "poor minority children" (I'm assuming that you mean poor US-born black children?) as "broken English". It's not. "Broken English", charitably, is English spoken by a non-native speaker. But poor-US-born black children children are native English speakers. It's just that the version of English they speak isn't Standard American English.

If you're interested, here is a good piece you could read that addresses the issue from both a linguistic and a teaching perspective:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-code-switcher/554099/

If you're not interested, of course, then you're not interested.

Code-switching is nothing new. You act as if the PP has no clue. As as an ELA teacher, I've been dealing with dialects of all kinds for over 20 years.

the difference? If proper English isn't supported at home (much like any other language learned), transference doesn't occur.

METS kids are illiterate in their own language, as they have never received formal schooling. So newly arrived METS kids are, for the most part, eager to learn, as there's more opportunity here. Furthermore, they are in small, contained classrooms with trained teachers who can introduce foundational skills and build from there.

African American "ebonics" (a term which is no longer used) is a dialect that has become acceptable in the U. S. However, similar to other countries, once you're out of your "area," the standard language - and NOT the dialect - is used. I can't tell you how often I slipped back into the dialect while traveling throughout my parents' home country. And I was called on it immediately.

We just have more patience in the U.S., which makes it more difficult to code-switch. Furthermore, b/c we've become lazy with grammar, most kids don't understand syntax in standard English. My daughter learned more about language in her Italian and Latin classes, as she certainly wasn't studying grammar in her English classes.

Not all METS kids are completely illiterate or have never attended school. Some have primary education and may know the alphabet and numbers in their home language. They might even have a small pool of sight words and be able to write their name. Quite a few had oral formal education, but no opportunity to pick up a pencil.

As you said, they are mostly eager to learn. Once you adjust for trauma, they often show more growth than native born students.

[Anonymous]

The discussion of METS kids is interesting, but leading us far from our original topic, which is an 11 year old who is getting some extra help in the first 3 days of the school year, and who will in all likelihood have passable English by Christmas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My bilingual child has a child in her class who doesn’t speak English. I’m thrilled about it because it gives my daughter a chance to practice her second language, be a helper, and get positive attention for knowing/using her second language (she’s reluctant sometimes). All of the kids pitch in to try to help. Terrible thing for kids to put their own stuff aside to help someone else, right?

What if your daughter did NOT know a second language? pure "luck" in this case and not necessarily a "solution" to OP's problem


Collaboration is one thing; holding up instructional time to accommodate one child is not a collaborative measure, however. The teacher is stuck, I assume, and the school clearly doesn't know what it's doing.

My daughter had a student in her history class who didn't know English. Her teacher (middle school), however, didn't pause to translate. When they were grouped, my daughter said no one could communicate with him. So he just sat there. When they presented, he was given a small task to handle. Eventually, he started to act out b/c he became more and more frustrated.

This situation benefited no one.

As the daughter of two immigrants who learned English the "hard way," I have empathy - but if this situation accommodates the needs of ONE child while holding back the others, it's not working.

Not sure it was luck. At orientation plus in the paperwork I filled out, it was made clear that my daughter was fluent in a second language.

Have you ever been in an immersion environment? I was in one as a twenty-something where I knew very little of the language and it was a sink or swim situation. I learned the language slowly at first then more quickly, and I'm sure a child will learn even more quickly. It's the first week, chill out.

[Anonymous]

Split some volunteer dates with your spouse and check it out for yourself. Maybe the teacher is just bad, maybe the students are too disparate and only the bottom will get attention.

Consider touring some parochial schools to see if that might be a better option for a few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My bilingual child has a child in her class who doesn’t speak English. I’m thrilled about it because it gives my daughter a chance to practice her second language, be a helper, and get positive attention for knowing/using her second language (she’s reluctant sometimes). All of the kids pitch in to try to help. Terrible thing for kids to put their own stuff aside to help someone else, right?

What if your daughter did NOT know a second language? pure "luck" in this case and not necessarily a "solution" to OP's problem


Collaboration is one thing; holding up instructional time to accommodate one child is not a collaborative measure, however. The teacher is stuck, I assume, and the school clearly doesn't know what it's doing.

My daughter had a student in her history class who didn't know English. Her teacher (middle school), however, didn't pause to translate. When they were grouped, my daughter said no one could communicate with him. So he just sat there. When they presented, he was given a small task to handle. Eventually, he started to act out b/c he became more and more frustrated.

This situation benefited no one.

As the daughter of two immigrants who learned English the "hard way," I have empathy - but if this situation accommodates the needs of ONE child while holding back the others, it's not working.

Not sure it was luck. At orientation plus in the paperwork I filled out, it was made clear that my daughter was fluent in a second language.

Have you ever been in an immersion environment? I was in one as a twenty-something where I knew very little of the language and it was a sink or swim situation. I learned the language slowly at first then more quickly, and I'm sure a child will learn even more quickly. It's the first week, chill out.

This is not immersion!

If the ESOL student is having things translated, this is NOT immersion. Having the class pause every few minutes to translate for one kid is NOT immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Split some volunteer dates with your spouse and check it out for yourself. Maybe the teacher is just bad, maybe the students are too disparate and only the bottom will get attention.

Consider touring some parochial schools to see if that might be a better option for a few years.

Because in the first week of 5th grade a kid has had to listen to a few things being translated into another language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm an ESOL teacher and most teachers will pair a non-English speaker with a peer buddy who speaks their language. Most teachers only ask that buddy to interpret when it is very important- directions for emergency drills, important paperwork that needs to be signed and brought back to school, etc. And most ESOL kids who are beginners get pulled out of class for short periods of up to an hour a day. They are not allowed to be isolated from their English speaking peers. I often give the teacher guidance for who to choose to be this peer buddy. I have seen students with behavior issues become very motivated and responsible when you ask them to be a peer buddy.

We have had this last year in 3rd grade. Student from Brazil (not even Spanish, Portuguese) was paired with Spanish speaking buddy. It went fairly well, by the end of the year Brazilian student was able to give short speech at class presentation in English. Not focus school or W feeder, so we had 25 kids in class, all of them understood the issue and were willing to help when they could.