"Red-Shirting" of kids

[Anonymous]

Chronological age (fetal, due dates etc) does not match point for point with physiologic, intellectual or neuromuscular age. There is a spread and variability. Some fold die at 72 and others at 92 years of age. Senile dementia infect you at 68 and another at 98.

Why must a kindergarten child be 5 years-old ... besides man made regulation and/or law?

[Anonymous]

Let me guess...your child was redshirted and is STILL at the bottom of the class. Poor thing...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There ARE some redshirted children that turn seven years old, during the course of the Kindergarten year. However, I haven't ready any post on this thread alleging that those children are seven years old on the FIRST day of class though--so clearly you just made that up.

I'm not making it up. I think that's the clear implication of PP's post that I quoted. I quote it again below for your benefit. She correctly noted that most K kids are 5 at the start of the year, and turn 6 sometime during the year. So her sentence about SIX and SEVEN year old kids doing well is clearly not aimed at the "normal" kids who started at age 5. I read her sentence as referring to kids that might be SIX or SEVEN at the beginning of the year. (And thanks for your accusation that I "made it up" -- that really serves to elevate the tone of this discussion.)

PP wrote:I agree. Kindergarten should be for five year olds (unless your DCs birthday is after the September 1st cut off) .... Your child is SIX or SEVEN years old in Kindergarten--they're doing well because they're OLD, not necessarily because they are smart.

And I'll even update the challenge -- can anyone here truthfully claim that there is a seven-year-old child sitting in your DC's class TODAY? So that would include children who were held back approximately 9 months beyond the cut-off. I'd be surprised is one single person here can make that claim (absent some really abnormal circumstance).

[Anonymous]

Why should kindergarten be for 5 year-olds short of regulation or law? Can you provide a scientific, intellectual or physiologic rationale why you believe so? How do you explain families whose children have never put foot in a bricks and mortar kindergarten building.

[Anonymous]

Just as some kids talk and walk at different ages -- different kids are ready to go to school at different times. Parents make too big a deal of all of these things. It's a personal call for the family in consultation with the teachers and doctors. Both my daughter and I were born in December. Contrary to what the book "Outliers" thinks of December b-days -- my daughter & I both did great in school -- we tended to be some of the older ones in the class -- we could drive before many others and read and played sports better.

Do what you like -- ignore some of the really rude posters on this thread.

[Anonymous]

we plan to red shirt. end of august bday - wouldn't do it if it was further away from cut off. have parent private school educator (not DC). Say in all their years hardly saw a kid suffer from being older and many many from being younger. That's probably the same kind of 'science' that keeps DC privates from encouraging later starts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Your logic just does not cut it. If the boy in your DS's class is 6.25 right now, that means that his birthday was in August. Are you REALLY trying to argue that this kid is so much farther ahead than another who might have been born less than 30 days later (say Sept 2) and is the "proper" age for the class??? I think you're full of it and just trying to make excuses for the fact that your DS is not quite as far along as some.

No one here is arguing that parents should be allowed to redshirt a kid born before, say, April/May... but for a summer birthday, particularly July or Aug, it really should be up to the parents and school to place the child in today's advanced K curriculum when he/she is developmentally ready.

This child is technically 6.33 pushing 6.4 so sue me. If I had said he was 6.5 you would have argued about that. He has an early July birthday when he turned 6 and he is a major behavior problem. He is reading on a 2nd grade level and the school tried to encourage the parents to move him up to 1st grade with no luck. So this goes against your argument that it should be up to the school to place the child because the school TRIED to place the child in 1st grade. He finishes his work so early and then starts in on the other kids (talking, prodding, encouraging them to engage in his behavior). Yes, the teacher can give him extra work but this goes back to my point about this child affecting the entire class including the teacher. So, she must work doubly hard to engage this child so he doesn't engage the other children in his obnoxious behavior. She has to spend so much time redirecting this child that it takes time away from the rest of the class and to me THIS IS NOT FAIR.

As for my child, he is 100% where he is supposed to be at age 5 -- restless in his seat, but 100% ready for the curriculum of kindergarten.

And as for the other posters, I am not AGAINST redshirting of kids on the cut-off WITH REASON, but I can't understand for the life of me redshirting a kid with a July birthday because he's a boy, the same kid who is reading on a 2nd grade level the following year. Am I to believe he was not READY for kindergarten the previous year?? I'm calling BS on that.

I think that there are probably multiple things going on here and you are blaming it too much on his age. Its sounds like this little boy you complain about may be very immature and perhaps THAT is why he was redshirted. Just making a guess here, but it sounds like this little guy is immature, not well behaved (how is he in other settings...for example: how is he in PE, Art, etc?) and perhaps the teacher is not well trained in diversifying her lessons for a wide range of abilities (which I have found to be true in many privates, but less true in publics). There are many children who are academically advanced (but appropriate age for grade) who are NOT behavior problems. If all academically advanced children were 'bored' and caused behavior problems, we woudn't blame the children then , would we? We would expect the teacher to teach to a broader range of abilities and keep all children engaged and learning.

In my experience teaching in public K, I always had (age/grade appropriate) children reading at 1st, 2nd and even higher levels (as well as some still learning letter sounds). It is not that unusual, esp in some parts of MoCo. Advanced academic skills should not cause behavior problems in a well-taught class. It may be a *factor* for this little boy, but I'd bet a lot that he would be having similar issues were he in 1st grade right now, with the same teacher. It sounds like you are really angry with this little boy's parents but try to get some perspective...they are trying to do the right thing for their child and want the best school experience for him. Sometimes, in classrooms, the needs of some children compete against the needs of others. There will always be children in any class who need more of the teacher's time and attention to succeed. This is one reason why I believe small class size is one of the most important elements of a successful school.

[Anonymous]

Questions to all the defensive red-shirters: do you actually think its a GOOD idea for your child to be a 18 months older than some kids in the class?

I have an August boy, now 4, and was adamantly opposed to red-shirting until recently. For the last year I've been asking everyone I know with kids in early elementary about this and they are telling me there are no summer b-day boys (on the young side) in their kids' classes, but plenty summer b-days on the old side.

So suddenly I realized my decision was not whether my child be up to 12 months younger than his classmates, but rather that he would likely be up to 16 months younger, and probably several months younger than the next youngest boy in the class. On the flip side he will be 12 months and 2 weeks older than the youngest kid in his class, assuming someone with an 8/31 birthday is in there.

I feel like I am boxed into red-shirting even though it annoys me and it means paying an extra year of pre-school tuition. He is small and, seriously, is less coordinated than his 2-year old sister. To layer on top of this the above-scenario where all the boys are older -- even far older -- than he is, I don't think I can do that to him even though I think academically he'd be fine. I just remember too much about how grade school boys treat the unathletic ones. He's probably doomed to this regardless, but if I don't redshirt him I'm not even giving him a fair chance. (He will never be an athlete -- I'm talking about a fair chance say to kick a soccer ball, however badly, during soccer class rather than whiff it and fall down.)

On the flip side, my 2-year old daughter is September b-day and I'm going to be forced (by law) to have her start K 2 weeks before her 6th birthday even though I already know that is crazy. She already goes to pre-school with her brother and I'm sure she can go to K "early" (i.e., 2 weeks before her 5th bday).

It's a bad system. I think there needs to be more flexibility for parents AND more oversight from schools. E.g., maybe have some "shelf" of 6 to 8 weeks on either side of 9/1 where the parent can make the call, but outside of that the school would need to approve the decision based on an interview and/or testing and then maybe an absolute cut-off at 6 mos on either side of 9/1. Right now it seems that carte blanche is given to kids to redshirt but in the other direction it is difficult to impossible to make the call to start "early."

As a parent with a kid just on either side of the deadline, I feel completely hosed by the current system. I.e., the rampant redshirting is pushing me to redshirt my son even though I don't want to and the "strict deadline" approach is forcing me to hold back my daughter even though I don't want to.

[Anonymous]

It's a bad system. I think there needs to be more flexibility for parents AND more oversight from schools. E.g., maybe have some "shelf" of 6 to 8 weeks on either side of 9/1 where the parent can make the call, but outside of that the school would need to approve the decision based on an interview and/or testing and then maybe an absolute cut-off at 6 mos on either side of 9/1. Right now it seems that carte blanche is given to kids to redshirt but in the other direction it is difficult to impossible to make the call to start "early."

I am PP who complained about almost 6.5 yo boy in class who causes disruptions, and I could not agree more with PP's above statement. I am not 100% against redshirting, I just think many parents do it for the wrong reasons and it is starting to get out of hand. At some point the school systems (both public and private) are going to need to address this growing trend of redshirting well into spring birthdays, and creating a system as above poster suggested would be a great start.

Regardless of what my previous posts have said, I do believe parents have a say in this, but I'm always shocked to hear parents ignore all educator recommendations based solely on the fact that they don't want their child to be the youngest/smallest in the class. Someone has to be, and that seems like such a sad reason to hold your child back in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's a bad system. I think there needs to be more flexibility for parents AND more oversight from schools. E.g., maybe have some "shelf" of 6 to 8 weeks on either side of 9/1 where the parent can make the call, but outside of that the school would need to approve the decision based on an interview and/or testing and then maybe an absolute cut-off at 6 mos on either side of 9/1. Right now it seems that carte blanche is given to kids to redshirt but in the other direction it is difficult to impossible to make the call to start "early."

I am PP who complained about almost 6.5 yo boy in class who causes disruptions, and I could not agree more with PP's above statement. I am not 100% against redshirting, I just think many parents do it for the wrong reasons and it is starting to get out of hand. At some point the school systems (both public and private) are going to need to address this growing trend of redshirting well into spring birthdays, and creating a system as above poster suggested would be a great start.

Regardless of what my previous posts have said, I do believe parents have a say in this, but I'm always shocked to hear parents ignore all educator recommendations based solely on the fact that they don't want their child to be the youngest/smallest in the class. Someone has to be, and that seems like such a sad reason to hold your child back in school.

These discussions on DCUM about redshirting always seem to end up in the same place... with agreement that just sticking to some arbitrary government imposed date like Sept 1 makes little sense, and that it is in fact appropriate for parents and schools (working together) to make a decision for when to start a summer birthday child in K. Every time, we seem to go from "ABSOLUTELY NO REDSHIRTING, EVERY KID IN K MUST BE 5" to this more reasonable stance.

I think its important that the anti-redshirting crowd understand that very few people are arguing for redshirting non-summer birthdays... as a kid with say a March birthday that starts a year late is no "redshirting"... they're "repeating" a grade (usually for more serious developmental issues).

I like the approach the PP above suggested - parents should be able to decide for a child during a "shelf" time of say July and Aug, school should approve redshirts from say May and June, and anything April or before needs to only been done when repeating a grade is necessary due to more serious developmental issues (and appropriate tutoring/interventions are called for).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's a bad system. I think there needs to be more flexibility for parents AND more oversight from schools. E.g., maybe have some "shelf" of 6 to 8 weeks on either side of 9/1 where the parent can make the call, but outside of that the school would need to approve the decision based on an interview and/or testing and then maybe an absolute cut-off at 6 mos on either side of 9/1. Right now it seems that carte blanche is given to kids to redshirt but in the other direction it is difficult to impossible to make the call to start "early."

I am PP who complained about almost 6.5 yo boy in class who causes disruptions, and I could not agree more with PP's above statement. I am not 100% against redshirting, I just think many parents do it for the wrong reasons and it is starting to get out of hand. At some point the school systems (both public and private) are going to need to address this growing trend of redshirting well into spring birthdays, and creating a system as above poster suggested would be a great start.

Regardless of what my previous posts have said, I do believe parents have a say in this, but I'm always shocked to hear parents ignore all educator recommendations based solely on the fact that they don't want their child to be the youngest/smallest in the class. Someone has to be, and that seems like such a sad reason to hold your child back in school.

These discussions on DCUM about redshirting always seem to end up in the same place... with agreement that just sticking to some arbitrary government imposed date like Sept 1 makes little sense, and that it is in fact appropriate for parents and schools (working together) to make a decision for when to start a summer birthday child in K. Every time, we seem to go from "ABSOLUTELY NO REDSHIRTING, EVERY KID IN K MUST BE 5" to this more reasonable stance.

I think its important that the anti-redshirting crowd understand that very few people are arguing for redshirting non-summer birthdays... as a kid with say a March birthday that starts a year late is no "redshirting"... they're "repeating" a grade (usually for more serious developmental issues).

I like the approach the PP above suggested - parents should be able to decide for a child during a "shelf" time of say July and Aug, school should approve redshirts from say May and June, and anything April or before needs to only been done when repeating a grade is necessary due to more serious developmental issues (and appropriate tutoring/interventions are called for).

Students with serious developmental issues DO NOT repeat or get held back since the school can /will refer the child to a Child study team and evaluate for special instruction. IDEA, IEP. Special ed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These discussions on DCUM about redshirting always seem to end up in the same place... with agreement that just sticking to some arbitrary government imposed date like Sept 1 makes little sense, and that it is in fact appropriate for parents and schools (working together) to make a decision for when to start a summer birthday child in K. Every time, we seem to go from "ABSOLUTELY NO REDSHIRTING, EVERY KID IN K MUST BE 5" to this more reasonable stance.

I think its important that the anti-redshirting crowd understand that very few people are arguing for redshirting non-summer birthdays... as a kid with say a March birthday that starts a year late is no "redshirting"... they're "repeating" a grade (usually for more serious developmental issues).

Nice summary. I also think it's helpful for people to remember that despite all the heated discussion about it, redshirting is not the norm. I've spent time looking for statistics, and most seem to suggest that only about 6-9% of kids are outside traditional age parameters. And I'd be willing to bet that only a very tiny fraction of that 6-9% are more than a couple months outside the traditional parameters. That means that in an average classroom of 20-30 kids, you'll probably find only 1-2 kids older than the rest, and they'd likely be only a couple months older.

[Anonymous]

I am PP who is mostly against redshirting kids, but the truth is I'm probably just against the rigorous Kindergarten curriculum that has shifted over the years from a play-based learning center to one where we expect all kids at the end of the year to be reading, telling time and doing math that was once taught in 1 and 2 grade. It's very sad and to the detriment of everybody. I think if Kindergarten was how it used to be, people would be less inclined to redshirt.

[Anonymous]

Work it out with the school. Screw the innane bureaucratic age timetables. These are guidelines not the absolute truth. Let's exercise common sense and judgement.