Do not waste ED on a SLAC. Very few unhooked (non-athlete, non-FGLI, non-legacy/donor) get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

so 144*4=576 of their 668 athletes are recruited? that seems high to me. like I dont think half of their track team are recruited. Are they kids who were on the track and field team in HS? yes. but recruited? no. I mean, I see can see their times. They're not especially impressive. I can only think they use all their slots/tips.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

so 144*4=576 of their 668 athletes are recruited? that seems high to me. like I dont think half of their track team are recruited. Are they kids who were on the track and field team in HS? yes. but recruited? no. I mean, I see can see their times. They're not especially impressive. I can only think they use all their slots/tips.

Look at it this way: there are two kids applying ED. They have the same high stats but one
is an okay runner too. Nothing to write home about, but can help fill a team roster at the D3 level. That kid emails the coach spring of his junior year and then visits the school in September. The coach likes him, has passed the pre-read and knows admissions will not be bending over backwards to admit him.

Guess who gets in?

There are thousands of kids who run track and XC, and many, many have high stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

That’s an ivy thing. Most faculty get rejected at DD’s lac. It doesn’t make you some next level applicant. Geographic diversity is literally 1 person per state accepted, and it isn’t the leading thing colleges care about.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense

absolute bs. There happens to be a lot of top students, they dont just have to be upper middle class dc kids, just because it makes your life easy to assume that’s where all the top students are. The assumption that first gen people cant be intelligent is really appealing but not unexpected on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

I’d love to see these stats that you have!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

Without the actual “statistical evidence,” that’s a meaningless statement tinged with resentment.

I’d love to see those stats, as I myself have a regular unhooked high stats kids looking to ED at one of these schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

so 144*4=576 of their 668 athletes are recruited? that seems high to me. like I don't think half of their track team are recruited. Are they kids who were on the track and field team in HS? yes. but recruited? no. I mean, I see can see their times. They're not especially impressive. I can only think they use all their slots/tips.

The number is accurate. If you do a bit of searching you can find materials from Amherst and Bowdoin discussing athletics. There are very few walk on's in the NESCAC (T&F is probably an exception) and most of the 2 sport athletes have T&F as their second sport. However, there are plenty of recruited T&F athletes, you can figure out which ones just by looking at their TFFRS times. They would be the ones running faster than half of the Ivy league.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

I can give you that some athletes get a boost. But far fewer than you believe and it is much smaller than you believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

I can give you that some athletes get a boost. But far fewer than you believe and it is much smaller than you believe.

"Tip" is not "full support" and I know of several kids over the last 3 years who did not get into a NESCAC school from only the "Tip". Coaches will be honest you just need to have your kid ask the questions. I'm guessing it varies by school and sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you all overstate how many athletes are or aren't recruited.

let's look at Bowdoin.
850 athletes
(668 unduplicated athletes)

Bowdoin is pretty typical in that the largest sport is track and field.

249 track and field athletes.
84 football (male only)
83 lacrosse

together that's a big chunk of the total number.

how many track and field athletes do you think were actually recruited? I'd say 10 a class. Same w football. same with lacrosse

Am I way off? I know lots of kids doing track and field at these schools - more than 20. And I can think of 1 that was recruited. We're not a powerhouse HS sports school so I know our numbers are low. But most track and field kids at these schools are not recruited.

The numbers for Bowdoin are pretty easy because the NESCAC has formal and informal rules. They have 30 teams and they get two slots per team and 14 for football. These are recruits who can be below the mean (they often aren't) and get full recruiting support from the team. so 58=14 equals 72 recruits with full slotted support. Those are what is available per the NESCAC recruiting agreement. Traditionally on top of this there is an equal number of "tips" which are also effectively guarantees of admission for athletes who are above the mean student profile and this is also why people constantly point out that NESCAC athletes are typically highly qualified to attend the school. It is rare for a "tip" to not get in but they are not as strong of a guarantee as a slotted athlete. All of these spots can and are traded among teams and there are circumstances where the AO allows additional "tips". Colby is a school where this is rumored to happen given massive recruiting classes in a few sports over the past few years.

So for Bowdoin in the end, recruited athletes in a typical year are somewhere around 144 give or take one or two.

OK wow, so given that Bowdoin only accepts around 250 students during the ED/early admission season, that means more than 50% are taken by recruited athletes!

Then you have to consider other powerful ED hooks: Legacy, FGLI institutional priority, donor kids/development tags. Questbridge matches aren't ED but also make up part of the early acceptance class. That probably leaves only a small group for fully unhooked ED applicants.

I get what OP is saying now.

Legacy and donor kids are a tiny amount of applicants at LACs- it’s just not that common, since the alumni base is so small, we’re talking maybe 10 kids max, and they don’t have to apply ed. Questbridge takes off a bit from their ed fgli numbers, since they have a guaranteed amount of fgli students from that pool. I will say that this is getting more extreme as you see schools like Pomona accepting 61% of their classes requesting financial aid.

Schools like Swat are exceeding 25% first gen. Add in the 30% athletes (95% not first gen) and the numbers are overwhelming. 10 kids max in terms of legacies/big donors? Maybe (and they of course are expected to apply ED to get that edge). How about 5 more faculty brats? Geographic diversity domestic? The 10% internationals? However you slice it, there is no room at the inn ED.

Schools insisting on 40% athletes and another 25% first gen are hurting themselves in this sense: the top kids apply elsewhere (no ED boost, so might as well apply to Brown or Cornell and get an ED boost there). Whatever the top kids do, they are not around anymore in the RD round when the Williams’ of the world might admit them. They never go to Williams and the quality of the undergrads (slightly, but this is a feedback loop) declines. These schools are getting what they deserve: you can’t have that many athletes and first gen and top students. You can only have 2 of the 3….

You cant assume the FGLIs and athletes don’t have the stats. Oftentimes these athletes and FGLI kids have the same perfect stats as the regular high stats kids, so they are in fact among the “top students” you are referencing. They just happen to have something beyond stats. And that’s how they end up getting in vs a kid with just the stats.

All statistical evidence to the contrary...

I can give you that some athletes get a boost. But far fewer than you believe and it is much smaller than you believe.

"Tip" is not "full support" and I know of several kids over the last 3 years who did not get into a NESCAC school from only the "Tip". Coaches will be honest you just need to have your kid ask the questions. I'm guessing it varies by school and sport.

Agreed, and coaches will be honest but you need to ask. You always want a slot if possible and even kids with top academics will often require one if they are a top recruit. Typically I think the problems happen when coaches try to "tip" more than one or two. The weaker ones sometimes don't make it unless they are solidly above the mean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In some ways this WASP-B do not bother applying ED as an unhooked advice is similar to the top tier of nat’l unis: top unhooked kids should not be applying SCEA either. Use the ED/SCEA ticket wisely — at your peril.

Dude, stop with the WASP-B. You sound pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In some ways this WASP-B do not bother applying ED as an unhooked advice is similar to the top tier of nat’l unis: top unhooked kids should not be applying SCEA either. Use the ED/SCEA ticket wisely — at your peril.

Dude, stop with the WASP-B. You sound pathetic.

+100

[Anonymous]

This is the dumbest DCUM thread ever, and that bar is exceedingly high.