Schools similar to MIT (but less impossible)

[Anonymous]

Rose-Hulman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP back again. Thanks to all posters who have made suggestions. I appreciate having wider range of targets and other reaches. After seeing friends' kids get rejected by Georgia Tech, CMU and JHU and other science oriented reaches, I'm getting really nervous seeing my kid's dream school list. Hopefully these suggestions will be helpful for parents of other sciencey kids as well. We have mostly been focused on research universities but plan on touring a few LACs soon just to gain more familiarity with them. Neither DH nor I attended an LAC so they are a bit of an exotic animal to us, but we wouldn't rule them out. I can see how they would be better for quality of instruction, but I am not sure how the students get research experience when the faculty are primarily teaching.

LAC profs are still expected to publish research, more so at the top ones. However, it is pursued in the context of educating undergraduates, which is their number one priority. At a university it is the number three priority (after research and teaching grad students.) The lack of grad students on an LAC campus means a more significant role in what research does take place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking for a school for a student who particularly excels at STEM but also wants a strong academic experience all around. Loves learning, loves a challenge, and possibly wants to go to grad school for academic research so undergrad research opportunities are important. She would love to be around other students who are enthusiastic and passionate about science. So far she has all A's, 1520 PSAT, will be maxed out on math/science courses at her school. Very involved in music oriented extracurriculars and would want to continue these in college for fun. If she could pick the school of her dreams, it would be MIT for sure, but she not have national/international level recognition or research experience. I am hoping to steer her towards schools with a similar "spirit" but which are less selective and more achievable. Any suggestions for schools to focus our search? We will likely be full pay. I think the school community and academic strength would be top priority for her rather than the setting of the school.

I'm sorry. But there IS NOTHING in the US that is similar to MIT but less impossible. All the schools mentioned here are all good schools, but I'm sorry. They are no MIT.

My suggestion is to look overseas into Imperial College in London. It is widely regarded all over the world as being on par with MIT/Stanford in STEM fields. MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the little schools mentioned in this thread. With the plus being they care less about any Research or ECs done in high school. All they care about is High Grades on AP tests and SAT.

I think you might have a narrow interpretation of “similar spirit” as MIT. To me, schools with a similar spirit are those doing an excellent job educating passionate students to be STEM leaders, academic and otherwise. Yes, we all know MIT is wonderful and is pretty unique when taking everything into account. But the good news is that while there are no exact clones, there are more than a few with similar spirit. Some are more similar than others, and that list can vary depending on how one weights things like % of STEM majors on campus, PhD production, research volume, research accessibility, teaching quality, student quality, and more.

[Anonymous]

Not to mention size, location, athletic scene, social scene, etc.

[Anonymous]

…percent living on campus…

[Anonymous]

CWRU is need aware, which will be a plus for you.

Reed is very rigorous all around.

WPI is need aware and, like all tech schools, needs more women. Unlike MIT, they don't have enough qualified female applicants for gender parity, so the "goods are odd"

What does she intend to major in, OP? Bryn Mawr has PhDs in Math, Physics, and Chemistry so if they're flexible she can challenge herself in that respect

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:For a few ideas that aren't like MIT, but which would be excellent for physics and mathematics, look into Williams, Hamilton and Reed.

None of these are anything like MIT. The whole point of MIT is a theory-heavy research-heavy environment for science for social good. Look at research universities with a good campus culture.

A number of LACs offer a theory-heavy education with excellent research opportunities. That research may not be as likely to be published in Nature or Science, but it might be more likely the undergraduate leads the work, which grad schools also care about.

MIT is pretty unique, but OP is looking for good but “less impossible” options, many of which are indeed universities, but many of which are LACs.

There's a lot of distance between MIT and William or MIT and Reed. Like sure there's a strenuous connection one can make, but answers like WPI, Gtech, even Harvey Mudd are quality answers.

Not so much distance in undergrad education for the programs they offer. OP said she was less likely to be interested in engineering.

There's a substantial difference studying physics at Williams and studying physics at Berkeley or MIT. I don't understand how someone can have such an uninformed opinion.
Look at course availability alone: https://physics.williams.edu/programs/courses/
MIT:https://catalog.mit.edu/subjects/8/

There’s a critical mass of variety of courses needed for a great undergraduate education. It is possible to have too few, but that’s not a problem at any of the better LACs. There’s a point of diminishing return. At the undergraduate level, coursework is mostly about mastering a field’s foundation. The more esoteric courses aren’t as significant til the grad level.

Ohio State has more physics courses open to undergrads than Harvey Mudd. That doesn’t make Ohio State a better place for undergrad physics.

For physics, 8 of the top 15 PhD producers by rate are LACs. Berkeley is 38th.

No one is trying to downplay how incredible MIT is. No one is even saying other universities aren’t also great. But the people saying you can’t get a top STEM education at an LAC are simply not well informed.

Chemistry or physics students might need 10 or 11 courses from within their departments to complete a major. A choice of electives is desirable, of course, which is well within the scope of LACs with strong departments in these areas.

As an example of this, this is a sampling of chemistry electives listed at a single LAC:

• Chemistry of Catastrophe
• Antibiotics
• Chemistry in Space: Chemical Dynamics of Planetary Bodies
• Introduction to Isotope Geochemistry
• Inorganic Materials: Nanowires to MOFs
• Chemical Approaches to Solar Energy Conversion
• Organic Synthesis Toward Improved Human Health
• Nuclear Chemistry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking for a school for a student who particularly excels at STEM but also wants a strong academic experience all around. Loves learning, loves a challenge, and possibly wants to go to grad school for academic research so undergrad research opportunities are important. She would love to be around other students who are enthusiastic and passionate about science. So far she has all A's, 1520 PSAT, will be maxed out on math/science courses at her school. Very involved in music oriented extracurriculars and would want to continue these in college for fun. If she could pick the school of her dreams, it would be MIT for sure, but she not have national/international level recognition or research experience. I am hoping to steer her towards schools with a similar "spirit" but which are less selective and more achievable. Any suggestions for schools to focus our search? We will likely be full pay. I think the school community and academic strength would be top priority for her rather than the setting of the school.

I'm sorry. But there IS NOTHING in the US that is similar to MIT but less impossible. All the schools mentioned here are all good schools, but I'm sorry. They are no MIT.

My suggestion is to look overseas into Imperial College in London. It is widely regarded all over the world as being on par with MIT/Stanford in STEM fields. MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the little schools mentioned in this thread. With the plus being they care less about any Research or ECs done in high school. All they care about is High Grades on AP tests and SAT.

Pretty much impossible to switch majors at UK universities, so this is a non-starter for OP's DD who seems undecided

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a few ideas that aren't like MIT, but which would be excellent for physics and mathematics, look into Williams, Hamilton and Reed.

None of these are anything like MIT. The whole point of MIT is a theory-heavy research-heavy environment for science for social good. Look at research universities with a good campus culture.

If a student would like a chance of winning, say, an Apker, I'd argue that any of Williams, Hamilton, or Reed would represent at least the equal of MIT.

because they’re competing against other undergraduate only institutions. They’d get curb stomped by any actual research institution. What, is Pomona like MIT now for having two recent winners? What a ridiculous, idiotic take

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeRoy_Apker_Award
You're very incorrect, and arrogant and aggressive too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a few ideas that aren't like MIT, but which would be excellent for physics and mathematics, look into Williams, Hamilton and Reed.

None of these are anything like MIT. The whole point of MIT is a theory-heavy research-heavy environment for science for social good. Look at research universities with a good campus culture.

If a student would like a chance of winning, say, an Apker, I'd argue that any of Williams, Hamilton, or Reed would represent at least the equal of MIT.

because they’re competing against other undergraduate only institutions. They’d get curb stomped by any actual research institution. What, is Pomona like MIT now for having two recent winners? What a ridiculous, idiotic take

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeRoy_Apker_Award
You're very incorrect, and arrogant and aggressive too.

Please note that the Apker was awarded in an open field through 1994. Subsequently, it has been awarded in two institutional categories. On a side note, it's interesting to see that the portion I wrote of that Wikepedia article several years ago has remained intact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does STEM mean to this student? More like engineering or more like physics and mathematics?

The OP posted a follow-up to say more like physics and math, not engineering.

Thank you.

Then I'll ask, what level of mathematics will your child have completed prior to high school graduation?

She will take multivariable at her school and perhaps beyond if we can find other options.

look at UCSD extension school or UIUC netmath. The former has office hours and live lectures, the latter is self paced. She can also look at modeling competitions and math competitions like the AMC and USAMTS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a few ideas that aren't like MIT, but which would be excellent for physics and mathematics, look into Williams, Hamilton and Reed.

None of these are anything like MIT. The whole point of MIT is a theory-heavy research-heavy environment for science for social good. Look at research universities with a good campus culture.

A number of LACs offer a theory-heavy education with excellent research opportunities. That research may not be as likely to be published in Nature or Science, but it might be more likely the undergraduate leads the work, which grad schools also care about.

MIT is pretty unique, but OP is looking for good but “less impossible” options, many of which are indeed universities, but many of which are LACs.

There's a lot of distance between MIT and William or MIT and Reed. Like sure there's a strenuous connection one can make, but answers like WPI, Gtech, even Harvey Mudd are quality answers.

Not so much distance in undergrad education for the programs they offer. OP said she was less likely to be interested in engineering.

There's a substantial difference studying physics at Williams and studying physics at Berkeley or MIT. I don't understand how someone can have such an uninformed opinion.
Look at course availability alone: https://physics.williams.edu/programs/courses/
MIT:https://catalog.mit.edu/subjects/8/

There’s a critical mass of variety of courses needed for a great undergraduate education. It is possible to have too few, but that’s not a problem at any of the better LACs. There’s a point of diminishing return. At the undergraduate level, coursework is mostly about mastering a field’s foundation. The more esoteric courses aren’t as significant til the grad level.

Ohio State has more physics courses open to undergrads than Harvey Mudd. That doesn’t make Ohio State a better place for undergrad physics.

For physics, 8 of the top 15 PhD producers by rate are LACs. Berkeley is 38th.

No one is trying to downplay how incredible MIT is. No one is even saying other universities aren’t also great. But the people saying you can’t get a top STEM education at an LAC are simply not well informed.

Chemistry or physics students might need 10 or 11 courses from within their departments to complete a major. A choice of electives is desirable, of course, which is well within the scope of LACs with strong departments in these areas.

As an example of this, this is a sampling of chemistry electives listed at a single LAC:

• Chemistry of Catastrophe
• Antibiotics
• Chemistry in Space: Chemical Dynamics of Planetary Bodies
• Introduction to Isotope Geochemistry
• Inorganic Materials: Nanowires to MOFs
• Chemical Approaches to Solar Energy Conversion
• Organic Synthesis Toward Improved Human Health
• Nuclear Chemistry

Why not name the “single LAC?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a few ideas that aren't like MIT, but which would be excellent for physics and mathematics, look into Williams, Hamilton and Reed.

None of these are anything like MIT. The whole point of MIT is a theory-heavy research-heavy environment for science for social good. Look at research universities with a good campus culture.

A number of LACs offer a theory-heavy education with excellent research opportunities. That research may not be as likely to be published in Nature or Science, but it might be more likely the undergraduate leads the work, which grad schools also care about.

MIT is pretty unique, but OP is looking for good but “less impossible” options, many of which are indeed universities, but many of which are LACs.

There's a lot of distance between MIT and William or MIT and Reed. Like sure there's a strenuous connection one can make, but answers like WPI, Gtech, even Harvey Mudd are quality answers.

Not so much distance in undergrad education for the programs they offer. OP said she was less likely to be interested in engineering.

There's a substantial difference studying physics at Williams and studying physics at Berkeley or MIT. I don't understand how someone can have such an uninformed opinion.
Look at course availability alone: https://physics.williams.edu/programs/courses/
MIT:https://catalog.mit.edu/subjects/8/

There’s a critical mass of variety of courses needed for a great undergraduate education. It is possible to have too few, but that’s not a problem at any of the better LACs. There’s a point of diminishing return. At the undergraduate level, coursework is mostly about mastering a field’s foundation. The more esoteric courses aren’t as significant til the grad level.

Ohio State has more physics courses open to undergrads than Harvey Mudd. That doesn’t make Ohio State a better place for undergrad physics.

For physics, 8 of the top 15 PhD producers by rate are LACs. Berkeley is 38th.

No one is trying to downplay how incredible MIT is. No one is even saying other universities aren’t also great. But the people saying you can’t get a top STEM education at an LAC are simply not well informed.

Chemistry or physics students might need 10 or 11 courses from within their departments to complete a major. A choice of electives is desirable, of course, which is well within the scope of LACs with strong departments in these areas.

As an example of this, this is a sampling of chemistry electives listed at a single LAC:

• Chemistry of Catastrophe
• Antibiotics
• Chemistry in Space: Chemical Dynamics of Planetary Bodies
• Introduction to Isotope Geochemistry
• Inorganic Materials: Nanowires to MOFs
• Chemical Approaches to Solar Energy Conversion
• Organic Synthesis Toward Improved Human Health
• Nuclear Chemistry

Most of these courses were not taught this entire year at hamilton college. The course catalog is public knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cornell

If you don’t want HUGE, Cornell is out, it’s gigantic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking for a school for a student who particularly excels at STEM but also wants a strong academic experience all around. Loves learning, loves a challenge, and possibly wants to go to grad school for academic research so undergrad research opportunities are important. She would love to be around other students who are enthusiastic and passionate about science. So far she has all A's, 1520 PSAT, will be maxed out on math/science courses at her school. Very involved in music oriented extracurriculars and would want to continue these in college for fun. If she could pick the school of her dreams, it would be MIT for sure, but she not have national/international level recognition or research experience. I am hoping to steer her towards schools with a similar "spirit" but which are less selective and more achievable. Any suggestions for schools to focus our search? We will likely be full pay. I think the school community and academic strength would be top priority for her rather than the setting of the school.

I'm sorry. But there IS NOTHING in the US that is similar to MIT but less impossible. All the schools mentioned here are all good schools, but I'm sorry. They are no MIT.

My suggestion is to look overseas into Imperial College in London. It is widely regarded all over the world as being on par with MIT/Stanford in STEM fields. MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the little schools mentioned in this thread. With the plus being they care less about any Research or ECs done in high school. All they care about is High Grades on AP tests and SAT.

lol