Removal of development cap in downtown Bethesda
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Anonymous
| Bethesda is not an edge city. Tysons is an edge city (in fact, Tysons was one of the archetypical edge city). Downtown Bethesda is an urban sub-center in a polycentric urban area. |
Anonymous
If you put more commercial and office space and an intercounty connector train station in, it will have more of the qualifications for an edge city. Is that not what is wanted by removing this cap? I feel like I'm trying to explain what would make things look better and be better and the responders just want to argue about pedantic things like the cost of living in central Paris and whether edge city is apt. As I recall Rosslyn counted as an edge city. We were discussing the potential Rosslynization of Bethesda. If you read the link I posted (relinked below) it talks about new trends in edge cities that describe very well what I'm recommending in adequate professional urban plannerspeak. I don't really care how you define Bethesda. Just please do more justice to the great raw materials you have there. https://www.naiop.org/research-and-publications/magazine/2021/fall-2021/business-trends/suburbs-edge-cities-and-santa-fe-a-conversation-with-joel-garreau/#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20Tysons%2C%20Virginia,area%20near%20Raleigh%2C%20North%20Carolina. |
Anonymous
No, it won't. The Purple Line can't open soon enough, and I support more housing in downtown Bethesda (with less parking), but Bethesda is not an edge city, and that won't turn it into an edge city. Quite the contrary, in fact. Rosslyn is also not an edge city. From the article you link to: An Edge City: “Has five million square feet or more of leasable office space — the workplace of the Information Age.” “Has 600,000 square feet or more of leasable retail space. That is the equivalent of a fair-sized mall.” “Has more jobs than bedrooms. When the workday starts, people head toward this place, not away from it.” “Is perceived by the population as one place. It is a regional end destination for mixed use — not a starting point — that ‘has it all,’ from jobs, to shopping, to entertainment.” “Was nothing like ‘city’ as recently as 30 years ago [meaning the 1960s]. Then, it was just bedrooms, if not cow pastures. This incarnation is brand new.” In addition, although Joel Garreau thought in 1991 that Edge Cities were the future, it was evident within 10-15 years that they weren't. Even Tysons is supposedly shifting to urban density, around transit, on a street grid. |
Anonymous
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PP. I used Google to look up stats.
If you consider Bethesda as a whole, which I do, including commercial office space and NIH and Walter Reed, that would be more than 5M square feet of space for workers to be doing jobs in. So it would meet that test. Government facilities with office space should count. Because the metric is intended to relate to possible density of workers. So government workers should count. It doesn't really matter whether the space is leasable per se. If you consider Montgomery Mall, you are at 2x the suggested retail threshold. Bethesda Row contains 50% of the threshold if restaurants count. I can't find a clear stat but between those two properties and another estimate I found, the retail space test is met. More jobs than bedrooms, not clear. The population is in the 60K range. NIH has 18K employees in Bethesda. Bethesda has 34Kish workers. Does that count NIH? Here you might be 50-100% but clearly the area is a local job center. I think the intent at one point was for Bethesda to "have it all" in terms of amenities unless the type of business was downscale. Bethesda was in the 50K population range in 1960 but the cows were probably in North Potomac like they were when I arrived in 1980. So it was a very small city already. I think people tried to jump start it and Rockville when they put in the Metro stations. Clearly they were trying to transform Bethesda into something bigger and grander than a small bedroom community. And partially succeeded. I personally feel the office and retail space tests are more relevant but grant this element doesn't match up. Oh and Google says Rosslyn is an edge city. Ask it "Is Rosslyn an edge city?" and see for yourself. Maybe you need to go argue with the entire internet. The point of the article link was to explain that the new trend is more human scale and more beauty. That's what people want to see and buy in these job and residential living centers. Whatever you want to call them. Bethesda is not performing up to reasonable expectations. When I last drove through you could still see the ghost signage from long-dead interesting street-level businesses of the past. That's a real shame for an area with such concentrated wealth. |
Anonymous
You seem confused about geography. La Defense is the Rosslyn/Tysons of Paris. Everything that right outside the Periph, including Neuilly, Saint-Denis, etc are about the same distance from central Paris as downtown Bethesda is to the Capitol building. It is not hard to just go to Google Maps and look at these places. What you will see is basically the same built environment as Bethesda, Silver Spring, etc. Lots of park apartments with big parking lots near transit and lots of attached and detached SFHs with yards. It disturbs me that the whole planning/urbanist push is based on false understandings of places you are trying to emulate. |
Anonymous
They’ve been to EPCOT several times, who are you to argue? |
Anonymous
PP. I'm not confused about geography. What I am saying is that I would prefer Bethesda to look like central Paris or low-skyline center cities and not sk*scraper clusters. It doesn't matter how dense the analogous 15 miles from central Paris neighborhoods are. I don't have my own math on what the density should be, just a hope for what it could look like. Wealthy areas can suboptimize density for aesthetics. Clearly that is a choice. So I don't think I have false understandings. Just preferences. I am not a city planner or an urbanist. I am a consumer of residential space with experience living in 14 story apartments, townhouses, and 3-5 bedroom SFH's talking about what kind of town looks good and has a nice vibe vs. a jumble of tall ugly mirrorred glass buildings. I'm not even anti-sk*scraper or tall building. I previously said I lived in a tall building at Grosvenor and it was nice looking, convenient to Metro, and had attractive green space. Whoever you are, you've gone way too deep into critiquing my Paris analogies and complaining about planning terminology. So what are your ideas and analogies for a better-looking, better-functioning Bethesda? I literally can't even afford to own a house there but I once wanted to so badly that I shaped my life choices around that dream. That's the reason I even bother with this thread. You lucky people who can afford to live there are botching the job as planners, businesspeople, and citizens. Things shouldn't get worse over 30 years in a wealthy area! |
Anonymous
How hard is it to understand that Bethesda should not have the density of a central city because it is not a central city? |
Anonymous
So what's your position. More or less density? You prefer more office or more sfh? |
Anonymous
Bethesda is a central city. It's not THE central city, but it is A central city in a polycentric urban area. |
Anonymous
But things aren't getting worse. What you're saying is, "I don't like it as much." That's fine, you get to have your own preferences, but it's not the same thing. |
Anonymous
Lol, as if you aren't making the most basic slam an American who has traveled abroad can make. |
Anonymous
You have lost the plot. Bethesda is an urbanized bedroom community. |
Anonymous
Go find me the articles praising the architecture of the downtown Bethesda corridor on Rockville Pike. It's not just my preferences. Did you read the Reddit I linked? I spent some time searching and couldn't find compliments about the look of the business district. The things you can do there were complimented but not the aesthetics. Read people complaining about local traffic on the street grid. Yes, I'll say the sightlines along roads have gotten worse to me. Which partly ties to tall blocky buildings very close to the street. My opinion is somewhat of a preference but could also be researched with data on how far ahead one can look while driving. It's not at all the same kind of preference as saying I wish all the buildings were faced with pastel stucco. |
Anonymous
That is kind of the central question/tension. Losing the plot assumes that the city will remain a bedroom community. Very long-term, that might not be the case. |