Is 'fit' overrated?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree. I found my friends at my large college, but I had a horrible experience because it was a cold, uncaring environment. I was really lost, and it was clear that no one cared. I think I’d have done much better at a smaller school where professors/ administrators had some knowledge of the students.

Fit is about more than just finding a good group of peers.

This. Access to my professors was so nice, along with smaller classes.

I had exactly one class in a large lecture hall, and that was because I was taking the one science clsss for non science students

I'm curious about your experience. My kid graduated from a private in DC with only 70 people. My kid wanted to spread his wings, so to speak, and attend a huge state university. All kids are different.

My kid enjoyed life at the big school and made many friends while being on the deans list. To me, "Fit" is where your kid will be happy and thrive! A choice only your kid can make and take ownership of their choice!

Dp. I think that’s the point. That there are many factors to “fit” beyond finding your peer group. Different kids have different priorities and needs.

I only said that my son made many friends his freshman year. I never said anything about "finding your peer group". Maybe you didn't understand. My point was exactly aligned with your post. Kids have different priorities and that is fine!

My kid is not interested in post grad. He loves big time college sports. Yes, he had some large freshman classes but most of the other classes were small.

He found his way and I'm happy for him! He chose his school and has thrived. It was his "fit" and he has owned up to the challenge!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've toured a ton of LACs this year, and they have everything you list except Huge sporting events. Big events for the school and fun for the kids and full of school spirit, but not on national-TV huge. That isn't something that appeals to my kids anyway (their high school didn't even have a football team), so not a loss.

Due to sheer math, I don't think you can compare the kind of diversity at LACs to the diversity at somewhat larger private universities.

We are talking about fit. If a small school is best for your kid, then diversity isn't going to be about "sheer" numbers. If sheer numbers is important for you for fit, then a large school that is also diverse is a better fit.

In other words, we agree that fit matters and is not over rated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

If I were looking for advice for success and happiness in life, I would not look to college professors.

This is advice on what makes for a good a college education.

"College education" is about a lot more than direct interface with one's instructors, and a lot of professors don't understand that. It leads them to overvalue LACs, especially the kind that (over) produce PhDs. I'm not saying LACs are bad, but let's keep things in proportion.

You say that as if LACs don't have those other things as well.

* Diverse peer groups?
* Huge sporting events?
* Decent career offices and OCR?
* Well resourced libraries?
* A wide variety of specialized majors?
* State of the art labs?

All of the above items could be construed as part of a good college education. Many LACs have none of them and some have none of them. I'm not saying LACs are bad. But it's a trade-off that's not worth it for most.

We've toured a ton of LACs this year, and they have everything you list except Huge sporting events. Big events for the school and fun for the kids and full of school spirit, but not on national-TV huge. That isn't something that appeals to my kids anyway (their high school didn't even have a football team), so not a loss.

Just curious for an example, because I haven't found a single one for a top academic LAC...only ones that come close are Richmond and Davidson (but those are in fact D1 sports schools and sometimes they are on TV). All the other D3 academic SLACs you won't find anyone caring or attending a sporting event other than the players, and some cross-cheering from other athletes.

Well does it really matter? Like some people also don't care at all about sports. There's other ways to be active in a school community than yelling in the stands. Most LACs have the "big game" that everyone goes to for rivalries, but it really shouldn't be seen as "losing out" when it ultimately...doesn't matter. I went to a D1 school but spent more time at TD Garden.

It matters only that my kid is interested in an academic LAC where kids care about the sports and we haven't found any. Sorry, there isn't even a "big" game that kids attend anymore.

PP mentioned several LACs that fit the bill...so was curious to see what they found.

Lafayette v. Lehigh rivalry game; Holy Cross is very into their sports; Davidson is very into basketball; Xavier is huge into basketball; the Bard tour guide noted she never missed a bball game because her friends were on the team and her bball friends never missed a play she was in; etc, etc. etc. If your kids like sports (mine don't) they can enjoy whatever sport they want at a school. No one is trying to compare Bard baseball to Notre Dame football. That clearly wasn't the point. If big team rah rah is your jam -- that is an element of 'fit' proving: fit matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

Proving the point again: yes, fit matters. For me 1800 was huge, not suffocating. For you, it is a bad fit. But there are larger colleges with an undergraduate focus that still fit the recommendation (e.g. Brown, Princeton, Tufts, Lehigh, etc.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

Even the five college consortium suffers from transportation and the will power to go to another college when it isn’t immediately on your campus like the Claremont Colleges. Though, the Claremont colleges are basically a university and even are modeled after Oxford and Cambridge

[Anonymous]

I think people are using fit in two ways:
* Objective preferences, like size, location, weather, academic strengths, facilities, etc.
* Subjective/cultural preferences, like artsy, preppy, intellectual, hippyish, pre professional, etc.

OP asserts that the second meaning doesn't matter past a certain size, say the "Goldilocks" threshold of about 7-9000 undergrads. I think this sounds reasonable. At that size, you go for the best ranked school that meets your objective criteria, generally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think people are using fit in two ways:
* Objective preferences, like size, location, weather, academic strengths, facilities, etc.
* Subjective/cultural preferences, like artsy, preppy, intellectual, hippyish, pre professional, etc.

OP asserts that the second meaning doesn't matter past a certain size, say the "Goldilocks" threshold of about 7-9000 undergrads. I think this sounds reasonable. At that size, you go for the best ranked school that meets your objective criteria, generally.

Basically, all large schools are essentially the same and have many different kinds of students, so if one is a fit, they all are. Fit might become more regional at that size (e.g., Berkley v. Bama v. Wisconsin v. U of SC). The smaller you get, the more the feel of the school and the type of student the school generally admits matters (e.g., Washington and Lee v Reed).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are using fit in two ways:
* Objective preferences, like size, location, weather, academic strengths, facilities, etc.
* Subjective/cultural preferences, like artsy, preppy, intellectual, hippyish, pre professional, etc.

OP asserts that the second meaning doesn't matter past a certain size, say the "Goldilocks" threshold of about 7-9000 undergrads. I think this sounds reasonable. At that size, you go for the best ranked school that meets your objective criteria, generally.

Basically, all large schools are essentially the same and have many different kinds of students, so if one is a fit, they all are. Fit might become more regional at that size (e.g., Berkley v. Bama v. Wisconsin v. U of SC). The smaller you get, the more the feel of the school and the type of student the school generally admits matters (e.g., Washington and Lee v Reed).

I think the difference between large schools is more academic. Berkeley is a massive cutthroat hell that does not help you. It is much more competitive than Bama.

Small colleges tend to be similar in terms of their peers: Williams isn't that different to Amherst isn't that different to Pomona. Colby and Bates are pretty similar, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

Even the five college consortium suffers from transportation and the will power to go to another college when it isn’t immediately on your campus like the Claremont Colleges. Though, the Claremont colleges are basically a university and even are modeled after Oxford and Cambridge

That’s fair, but again, each student/family should do their own research on whether this arrangement would work for them. My daughter thought Meredith’s proximity to NCState and Raleigh (plus the free bus services to both) were a big selling point, even if she never took a class at NC State.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

Even the five college consortium suffers from transportation and the will power to go to another college when it isn’t immediately on your campus like the Claremont Colleges. Though, the Claremont colleges are basically a university and even are modeled after Oxford and Cambridge

That’s fair, but again, each student/family should do their own research on whether this arrangement would work for them. My daughter thought Meredith’s proximity to NCState and Raleigh (plus the free bus services to both) were a big selling point, even if she never took a class at NC State.

Not sure why it’s a selling point if you never expect to use it.

I think what others are pointing out is don’t pick a school thinking lots of students take advantage of the consortium and somehow that is part of the culture that all the Swarthmore kids are taking classes at Haverford and vice versa. Very few take advantage though I understand Bryn Mawr students somewhat take advantage of the Haverford relationship (but near zero the other way).

It is something that sounds good on paper but not so much in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are using fit in two ways:
* Objective preferences, like size, location, weather, academic strengths, facilities, etc.
* Subjective/cultural preferences, like artsy, preppy, intellectual, hippyish, pre professional, etc.

OP asserts that the second meaning doesn't matter past a certain size, say the "Goldilocks" threshold of about 7-9000 undergrads. I think this sounds reasonable. At that size, you go for the best ranked school that meets your objective criteria, generally.

Basically, all large schools are essentially the same and have many different kinds of students, so if one is a fit, they all are. Fit might become more regional at that size (e.g., Berkley v. Bama v. Wisconsin v. U of SC). The smaller you get, the more the feel of the school and the type of student the school generally admits matters (e.g., Washington and Lee v Reed).

I think the difference between large schools is more academic. Berkeley is a massive cutthroat hell that does not help you. It is much more competitive than Bama.

Small colleges tend to be similar in terms of their peers: Williams isn't that different to Amherst isn't that different to Pomona. Colby and Bates are pretty similar, etc.

I would have assumed this but found when DD was narrowing down her choices for a rural/small town LAC with a strong environmental program (not looking at elite schools), she got a really clear sense that some felt right to her and some didn't. For her, this "vibe" read mattered a lot on top of her basic school characteristic requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

Even the five college consortium suffers from transportation and the will power to go to another college when it isn’t immediately on your campus like the Claremont Colleges. Though, the Claremont colleges are basically a university and even are modeled after Oxford and Cambridge

That’s fair, but again, each student/family should do their own research on whether this arrangement would work for them. My daughter thought Meredith’s proximity to NCState and Raleigh (plus the free bus services to both) were a big selling point, even if she never took a class at NC State.

Not sure why it’s a selling point if you never expect to use it.

I think what others are pointing out is don’t pick a school thinking lots of students take advantage of the consortium and somehow that is part of the culture that all the Swarthmore kids are taking classes at Haverford and vice versa. Very few take advantage though I understand Bryn Mawr students somewhat take advantage of the Haverford relationship (but near zero the other way).

It is something that sounds good on paper but not so much in reality.

She expected she would use the busses, and the students told her they used them frequently.

I have agreed repeatedly you need to speak with students to see if the consortium and/or proximity to a city are actually taken advantage of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are using fit in two ways:
* Objective preferences, like size, location, weather, academic strengths, facilities, etc.
* Subjective/cultural preferences, like artsy, preppy, intellectual, hippyish, pre professional, etc.

OP asserts that the second meaning doesn't matter past a certain size, say the "Goldilocks" threshold of about 7-9000 undergrads. I think this sounds reasonable. At that size, you go for the best ranked school that meets your objective criteria, generally.

Basically, all large schools are essentially the same and have many different kinds of students, so if one is a fit, they all are. Fit might become more regional at that size (e.g., Berkley v. Bama v. Wisconsin v. U of SC). The smaller you get, the more the feel of the school and the type of student the school generally admits matters (e.g., Washington and Lee v Reed).

"basically, all large schools are the same". Please explain. 45,000 to 50,000 undergrads in itself show diversity as opposed to a small LAC of 4-7 thousand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Fit" is a thing but my hope is that our children aren't in need of a particular fit. We discourage SLACs.

The college professors in our family have the exact opposite opinion. They discourage large schools and any school with a big graduate program. They want all the kids in the family to attend a school where the primary focus of fully tenured professors is undergraduate education.

Even if there are only 1800 students in the entire school and it feels suffocating??

then for that student, you find a bigger school. Not all of them are that small.

Also don't forget that there are consortiums at many smaller schools, and if the school is near a metro area, that also increases social opportunities.

A few examples:
As I stated above, my alma mater is Wake Forest. I was in the marching band and our consortium with Salem College allowed those students to participate with us. I have heard of other places where this happens, so worth thinking about.
My child was considering Randolph College, which has a consortium with ULynchburg and Sweet Briar - that would have expanded class options for her and social group.
We looked at Meredith College in NC. Small women's college, but a mile from NC State (also part of a consortium) AND in Raleigh. So you get the small school experience with larger school AND city opportunities. My daughter didn't wind up applying in the end, but it was a lovely school.

The consortium option sounds appealing in theory, but few work all that well in practice. I have no comment on the above options, but unless it's like the Pomona schools that are all right next to each other, the logistics tend to make these difficult.

Just make sure you ask current students if anyone makes use of the consortiums.

I understand logistics and what not - Obviously, you do ask how that works out.

What about the Five Colleges in Amherst area?

The above were just examples, not suggestions where everyone should look. Just thoughts how a small school may not be as stifling as some fear.

It was fun to have people from outside our campus in our marching band. And I know some of them took more than just band at our school.

As for Meredith and NC State, I was told one girl was on the NCState dance team by taking one course per semester there.

People need to do their own research, obviously.

Even the five college consortium suffers from transportation and the will power to go to another college when it isn’t immediately on your campus like the Claremont Colleges. Though, the Claremont colleges are basically a university and even are modeled after Oxford and Cambridge

That’s fair, but again, each student/family should do their own research on whether this arrangement would work for them. My daughter thought Meredith’s proximity to NCState and Raleigh (plus the free bus services to both) were a big selling point, even if she never took a class at NC State.

Not sure why it’s a selling point if you never expect to use it.

I think what others are pointing out is don’t pick a school thinking lots of students take advantage of the consortium and somehow that is part of the culture that all the Swarthmore kids are taking classes at Haverford and vice versa. Very few take advantage though I understand Bryn Mawr students somewhat take advantage of the Haverford relationship (but near zero the other way).

It is something that sounds good on paper but not so much in reality.

This is kind've accurate. The TriCo (Swa(r)t, Haverford, Bryn Mawr) is dead. Haverford and Bryn Mawr's BiCo is in well use, and there is a bus that runs between the two. No, Bryn Mawr students don't leach off of Haverford. Bryn Mawr runs a few of the BiCo departments and offers all the classes there. People go to both!