Equity against Math acceleration

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone’s school max out at AB or BC and take multivariable elsewhere, maybe during the Summer? DC’s school is smaller, and I think they just don’t have enough students to support a course. Thank you for any information.

It doesn’t directly answer your question, but even if your school’s last calculus class is BC, they might offer additional math courses of value. AP Stats is a good example. Or maybe a course on mathematical reasoning that focuses on proofs. More calculus beyond BC isn’t the only attractive strategy, in other words.

DP with a similar question. DC is taking BC in 11th grade at a private school next year. DC has a nearly perfect grade in advanced precalculus, so I'm hoping that BC will be a healthy/successful challenge.

The school offers linear algebra as the only post-calculus "track" class. Also AP Stats is an option. While linear would probably be considered the highest available math for AO box checking, I suspect that AP Stats would be more practical.

I don't think there would be room for both classes in DC's schedule and summer isn't an available option. DC really likes math and has intermediate python skills.

What am I missing? What are the practical applications of linear algebra? Thanks.

Linear algebra is very relevant to engineering, physics, and even theoretical CS. However, I would probably steer my child towards AP Stats in your situation. It’s more likely to be a standardized curriculum that counts for placement in college. And stats is helpful for CS, data science, research opportunities, and so forth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math acceleration isn’t valued at liberal arts colleges. This poster isn’t wrong.

Disagree. Any selective college values students taking the most accelerated courses available, but there are always other considerations too.

Parent myth, misunderstanding of what "rigorous courseload" checkbox means. They just want to see the honors/AP variants of whatever class the student is in.

Colleges aren't admitting kids based on whatever shenanigans their parents pulled in middle school.

Not a “parent myth” if heard from current or former AOs. There is no one strategy that works for all students or all schools, but the idea that a little acceleration generally counts the same as a lot of acceleration is false. A lot of acceleration might add less than other things, like better grades, LORs, or ECs, but that’s a different statement. If all else is truly equal, a lot of acceleration is better than a little, whether in a classroom or out. Hence “spiky” kids having advantages over the merely “well rounded.”

Wondering if you're the same person who turns around and cries when you find out that someone with "lower stats" got your kid's spot at an Ivy.

Very happy with where my kids got admitted, but then they were in accelerated math.

And preparation to perform well in non-introductory courses was as important to us as the college itself.

Bright kids don’t need to take math classes twice to perform well.

Being placed into more advanced college classes doesn’t mean anything was taken twice. Although schools that don’t allow placement out of their intro courses are sometimes the ones with the most advanced students; their “intro courses” just go deeper, covering more complex problems and/or proofs, at a pace not possible if seeing the material for the very first time.

Wrong, more mature students can handle that pace the first time round. It's exactly the accelerated HS students who are more suited to grinding out problem sets than proofs.

The students who do best in these proof-based courses are accelerated to the point that they did real proofs in highschool. The ones in the middle were only moderately accelerated, so they know some of the material and can focus on the new material, the abstractions, and proofs. The ones who do the worst are those who were not accelerated - those who got a 5 in AP precalc or AB or, in some contexts, BC and told by their schools that it's enough for college.

You've already worked the kids with a five in AP pre-calc into the firmament, nice. The first cohort is getting their scores like now, right?

Nope, the game starts fresh in college, kids who look good on paper crumble, others launch.

[Anonymous]

Since this is (DC)UM, I'm hoping someone has first hand experience. DS (9th) is finishing up Calc BC this year and will score a 5. That leaves us with the option of AP Stats next year, MV and Linear Algebra at Howard in 11th and possibly classes at GW (Lin Alg for math majors and a formal proof based class) in 12th. DS is reluctant to do AP Stats and wants to do MV/Lin Alg at one of the OSSE consortium colleges, which would mean looking for 4 more semesters of math to fill at Howard/GW/Georgetown.

Has anyone in DC gone through something similar with their kids in DCPS, where the highest math offering is Calc BC? How did dual enrollment work out specifically for these math classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone’s school max out at AB or BC and take multivariable elsewhere, maybe during the Summer? DC’s school is smaller, and I think they just don’t have enough students to support a course. Thank you for any information.

It doesn’t directly answer your question, but even if your school’s last calculus class is BC, they might offer additional math courses of value. AP Stats is a good example. Or maybe a course on mathematical reasoning that focuses on proofs. More calculus beyond BC isn’t the only attractive strategy, in other words.

DP with a similar question. DC is taking BC in 11th grade at a private school next year. DC has a nearly perfect grade in advanced precalculus, so I'm hoping that BC will be a healthy/successful challenge.

The school offers linear algebra as the only post-calculus "track" class. Also AP Stats is an option. While linear would probably be considered the highest available math for AO box checking, I suspect that AP Stats would be more practical.

I don't think there would be room for both classes in DC's schedule and summer isn't an available option. DC really likes math and has intermediate python skills.

What am I missing? What are the practical applications of linear algebra? Thanks.

Linear algebra is very relevant to engineering, physics, and even theoretical CS. However, I would probably steer my child towards AP Stats in your situation. It’s more likely to be a standardized curriculum that counts for placement in college. And stats is helpful for CS, data science, research opportunities, and so forth.

AP stats is useless for placement; the meaningful statistics classes are calculus-based. AP stats typically transfers in as the easiest applied/business stats class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since this is (DC)UM, I'm hoping someone has first hand experience. DS (9th) is finishing up Calc BC this year and will score a 5. That leaves us with the option of AP Stats next year, MV and Linear Algebra at Howard in 11th and possibly classes at GW (Lin Alg for math majors and a formal proof based class) in 12th. DS is reluctant to do AP Stats and wants to do MV/Lin Alg at one of the OSSE consortium colleges, which would mean looking for 4 more semesters of math to fill at Howard/GW/Georgetown.

Has anyone in DC gone through something similar with their kids in DCPS, where the highest math offering is Calc BC? How did dual enrollment work out specifically for these math classes?

OSSE applications closed May 3rd. Assuming there's a reason (cost/commute) for choosing Howard for 11th over GW in 12th, I would suggest looking at math 101, 102, 189, and/or 190 for 10th instead of AP stats. You could also do MV/Linalg in 10th if he likes applied math more. There's tons of options at Howard alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math acceleration isn’t valued at liberal arts colleges. This poster isn’t wrong.

Disagree. Any selective college values students taking the most accelerated courses available, but there are always other considerations too.

Parent myth, misunderstanding of what "rigorous courseload" checkbox means. They just want to see the honors/AP variants of whatever class the student is in.

Colleges aren't admitting kids based on whatever shenanigans their parents pulled in middle school.

Not a “parent myth” if heard from current or former AOs. There is no one strategy that works for all students or all schools, but the idea that a little acceleration generally counts the same as a lot of acceleration is false. A lot of acceleration might add less than other things, like better grades, LORs, or ECs, but that’s a different statement. If all else is truly equal, a lot of acceleration is better than a little, whether in a classroom or out. Hence “spiky” kids having advantages over the merely “well rounded.”

Wondering if you're the same person who turns around and cries when you find out that someone with "lower stats" got your kid's spot at an Ivy.

Very happy with where my kids got admitted, but then they were in accelerated math.

And preparation to perform well in non-introductory courses was as important to us as the college itself.

Bright kids don’t need to take math classes twice to perform well.

Being placed into more advanced college classes doesn’t mean anything was taken twice. Although schools that don’t allow placement out of their intro courses are sometimes the ones with the most advanced students; their “intro courses” just go deeper, covering more complex problems and/or proofs, at a pace not possible if seeing the material for the very first time.

Wrong, more mature students can handle that pace the first time round. It's exactly the accelerated HS students who are more suited to grinding out problem sets than proofs.

The students who do best in these proof-based courses are accelerated to the point that they did real proofs in highschool. The ones in the middle were only moderately accelerated, so they know some of the material and can focus on the new material, the abstractions, and proofs. The ones who do the worst are those who were not accelerated - those who got a 5 in AP precalc or AB or, in some contexts, BC and told by their schools that it's enough for college.

You've already worked the kids with a five in AP pre-calc into the firmament, nice. The first cohort is getting their scores like now, right?

Nope, the game starts fresh in college, kids who look good on paper crumble, others launch.

Exceptions exist, but my generalization is much more accurate than yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are referring to several people and conjuring up a "troll" because you don't like what we are saying. I was one who said Calc in 9th wouldn't really do anything, certainly not make a difference with Calc in 10th. I had one kid who did Calc in 10th and one who did it in 11th. Both in at Ivies. Another kid did AB in 11th and BC 12th, also in at Ivy. Another kid did not accelerate math, not sure what they ended with but probably not more than AB. Also in at Ivy. Rigor is important, but it can be demonstrated in different ways, and you just can't make a measuring scale to these things and come up with rigid protocols.

If you have that many kids in ivies, it’s not what math they took and when. I can guarantee that.

Legacy/donor status, or you come from a famous family.

These three things have way more bearing on acceptance than what classes you take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since this is (DC)UM, I'm hoping someone has first hand experience. DS (9th) is finishing up Calc BC this year and will score a 5. That leaves us with the option of AP Stats next year, MV and Linear Algebra at Howard in 11th and possibly classes at GW (Lin Alg for math majors and a formal proof based class) in 12th. DS is reluctant to do AP Stats and wants to do MV/Lin Alg at one of the OSSE consortium colleges, which would mean looking for 4 more semesters of math to fill at Howard/GW/Georgetown.

Has anyone in DC gone through something similar with their kids in DCPS, where the highest math offering is Calc BC? How did dual enrollment work out specifically for these math classes?

OSSE applications closed May 3rd. Assuming there's a reason (cost/commute) for choosing Howard for 11th over GW in 12th, I would suggest looking at math 101, 102, 189, and/or 190 for 10th instead of AP stats. You could also do MV/Linalg in 10th if he likes applied math more. There's tons of options at Howard alone.

Thanks. But dual enrollment at private universities is only open for 11th and 12th graders. There is only a small list of courses in Howard and GW available for dual enrollment but a larger selection for Dual credit. Math 101 102 are not listed anywhere but 189/190 are for 11th grade dual credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are referring to several people and conjuring up a "troll" because you don't like what we are saying. I was one who said Calc in 9th wouldn't really do anything, certainly not make a difference with Calc in 10th. I had one kid who did Calc in 10th and one who did it in 11th. Both in at Ivies. Another kid did AB in 11th and BC 12th, also in at Ivy. Another kid did not accelerate math, not sure what they ended with but probably not more than AB. Also in at Ivy. Rigor is important, but it can be demonstrated in different ways, and you just can't make a measuring scale to these things and come up with rigid protocols.

If you have that many kids in ivies, it’s not what math they took and when. I can guarantee that.

Legacy/donor status, or you come from a famous family.

These three things have way more bearing on acceptance than what classes you take.

Thé poster you’re quoting sounds like a teacher talking about students they taught, not a parent. The poster mentions not knowing where the third kid ended up with math courses, which would point to a teacher as a parent would know what courses their own child had taken.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone’s school max out at AB or BC and take multivariable elsewhere, maybe during the Summer? DC’s school is smaller, and I think they just don’t have enough students to support a course. Thank you for any information.

It doesn’t directly answer your question, but even if your school’s last calculus class is BC, they might offer additional math courses of value. AP Stats is a good example. Or maybe a course on mathematical reasoning that focuses on proofs. More calculus beyond BC isn’t the only attractive strategy, in other words.

DP with a similar question. DC is taking BC in 11th grade at a private school next year. DC has a nearly perfect grade in advanced precalculus, so I'm hoping that BC will be a healthy/successful challenge.

The school offers linear algebra as the only post-calculus "track" class. Also AP Stats is an option. While linear would probably be considered the highest available math for AO box checking, I suspect that AP Stats would be more practical.

I don't think there would be room for both classes in DC's schedule and summer isn't an available option. DC really likes math and has intermediate python skills.

What am I missing? What are the practical applications of linear algebra? Thanks.

Linear algebra is very relevant to engineering, physics, and even theoretical CS. However, I would probably steer my child towards AP Stats in your situation. It’s more likely to be a standardized curriculum that counts for placement in college. And stats is helpful for CS, data science, research opportunities, and so forth.

AP stats is useless for placement; the meaningful statistics classes are calculus-based. AP stats typically transfers in as the easiest applied/business stats class.

AP anything looks good on high school transcript.

That's the college admissions game, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone’s school max out at AB or BC and take multivariable elsewhere, maybe during the Summer? DC’s school is smaller, and I think they just don’t have enough students to support a course. Thank you for any information.

It doesn’t directly answer your question, but even if your school’s last calculus class is BC, they might offer additional math courses of value. AP Stats is a good example. Or maybe a course on mathematical reasoning that focuses on proofs. More calculus beyond BC isn’t the only attractive strategy, in other words.

DP with a similar question. DC is taking BC in 11th grade at a private school next year. DC has a nearly perfect grade in advanced precalculus, so I'm hoping that BC will be a healthy/successful challenge.

The school offers linear algebra as the only post-calculus "track" class. Also AP Stats is an option. While linear would probably be considered the highest available math for AO box checking, I suspect that AP Stats would be more practical.

I don't think there would be room for both classes in DC's schedule and summer isn't an available option. DC really likes math and has intermediate python skills.

What am I missing? What are the practical applications of linear algebra? Thanks.

Read the book "When Life is Linear":

"From simulating complex phenomenon on supercomputers to storing the coordinates needed in modern 3D printing, data is a huge and growing part of our world. A major tool to manipulate and study this data is linear algebra. This book introduces concepts of matrix algebra with an emphasis on application, particularly in the fields of computer graphics and data mining. Readers will learn to make an image transparent, compress an image and rotate a 3D wireframe model. In data mining, readers will use linear algebra to read zip codes on envelopes and encrypt sensitive information.

The books details methods behind web search, utilized by such companies as Google, and algorithms for sports ranking which have been applied to creating brackets for March Madness and predict outcomes in FIFA World Cup soccer. The book can serve as its own resource or to supplement a course on linear algebra"

Just ordered it! Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone’s school max out at AB or BC and take multivariable elsewhere, maybe during the Summer? DC’s school is smaller, and I think they just don’t have enough students to support a course. Thank you for any information.

It doesn’t directly answer your question, but even if your school’s last calculus class is BC, they might offer additional math courses of value. AP Stats is a good example. Or maybe a course on mathematical reasoning that focuses on proofs. More calculus beyond BC isn’t the only attractive strategy, in other words.

DP with a similar question. DC is taking BC in 11th grade at a private school next year. DC has a nearly perfect grade in advanced precalculus, so I'm hoping that BC will be a healthy/successful challenge.

The school offers linear algebra as the only post-calculus "track" class. Also AP Stats is an option. While linear would probably be considered the highest available math for AO box checking, I suspect that AP Stats would be more practical.

I don't think there would be room for both classes in DC's schedule and summer isn't an available option. DC really likes math and has intermediate python skills.

What am I missing? What are the practical applications of linear algebra? Thanks.

Linear algebra is very relevant to engineering, physics, and even theoretical CS. However, I would probably steer my child towards AP Stats in your situation. It’s more likely to be a standardized curriculum that counts for placement in college. And stats is helpful for CS, data science, research opportunities, and so forth.

AP stats is useless for placement; the meaningful statistics classes are calculus-based. AP stats typically transfers in as the easiest applied/business stats class.

This is an interesting point. I recall reading somewhere that STEM kids often repeat core math classes at the most rigorous schools to ensure a solid foundation (vs taking the AP credits). DC is definitely the most excited about math and science courses but hasn't decided for sure that engineering is the trajectory.

Put another way, if DC will be taking linear and calculus-based stats in college, which course would be the better high school foundation in your view?

Thank you for your insights!

[Anonymous]

No body except old white and Asian rich parents care about T20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math acceleration isn’t valued at liberal arts colleges. This poster isn’t wrong.

Disagree. Any selective college values students taking the most accelerated courses available, but there are always other considerations too.

Parent myth, misunderstanding of what "rigorous courseload" checkbox means. They just want to see the honors/AP variants of whatever class the student is in.

Colleges aren't admitting kids based on whatever shenanigans their parents pulled in middle school.

Not a “parent myth” if heard from current or former AOs. There is no one strategy that works for all students or all schools, but the idea that a little acceleration generally counts the same as a lot of acceleration is false. A lot of acceleration might add less than other things, like better grades, LORs, or ECs, but that’s a different statement. If all else is truly equal, a lot of acceleration is better than a little, whether in a classroom or out. Hence “spiky” kids having advantages over the merely “well rounded.”

Wondering if you're the same person who turns around and cries when you find out that someone with "lower stats" got your kid's spot at an Ivy.

Very happy with where my kids got admitted, but then they were in accelerated math.

And preparation to perform well in non-introductory courses was as important to us as the college itself.

Bright kids don’t need to take math classes twice to perform well.

Being placed into more advanced college classes doesn’t mean anything was taken twice. Although schools that don’t allow placement out of their intro courses are sometimes the ones with the most advanced students; their “intro courses” just go deeper, covering more complex problems and/or proofs, at a pace not possible if seeing the material for the very first time.

Wrong, more mature students can handle that pace the first time round. It's exactly the accelerated HS students who are more suited to grinding out problem sets than proofs.

The students who do best in these proof-based courses are accelerated to the point that they did real proofs in highschool. The ones in the middle were only moderately accelerated, so they know some of the material and can focus on the new material, the abstractions, and proofs. The ones who do the worst are those who were not accelerated - those who got a 5 in AP precalc or AB or, in some contexts, BC and told by their schools that it's enough for college.

You've already worked the kids with a five in AP pre-calc into the firmament, nice. The first cohort is getting their scores like now, right?

Nope, the game starts fresh in college, kids who look good on paper crumble, others launch.

Exceptions exist, but my generalization is much more accurate than yours.

I don't fully disagree, but your pat hierarchy is a piece of pure fiction. The sort happens young in math because it's easy to develop a taste early (unlike writing that is slow to mature). But in the current STEM climate, it does not follow that everyone who accelerates was sorted correctly, or that when it comes to acceleration more is better. The more important aspects of mathematical thinking also kick in at an older age, so there's a second sort.

The current complaint is that math departments are being overwhelmed with interest. The number of majors has ballooned, the classes are flooded, yet they are a chore to teach. What used to be a self-selected group with deep interest, is now just trophy hunters who want to get the grade and get out. The parents shoehorning ever younger kids into BC, are playing a role, and it's already a well beaten path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are referring to several people and conjuring up a "troll" because you don't like what we are saying. I was one who said Calc in 9th wouldn't really do anything, certainly not make a difference with Calc in 10th. I had one kid who did Calc in 10th and one who did it in 11th. Both in at Ivies. Another kid did AB in 11th and BC 12th, also in at Ivy. Another kid did not accelerate math, not sure what they ended with but probably not more than AB. Also in at Ivy. Rigor is important, but it can be demonstrated in different ways, and you just can't make a measuring scale to these things and come up with rigid protocols.

If you have that many kids in ivies, it’s not what math they took and when. I can guarantee that.

Legacy/donor status, or you come from a famous family.

These three things have way more bearing on acceptance than what classes you take.

PP here. Your first statement was kind if my point. I don't think Calc in 9th adds anything. I do think that what math they took and when can help in relation to peers at school and help tell the "story" of their academic interests.

Your second statement couldn't be more offbase. No legacy, no big money (kids get FA), not famous (I wish). 2 kids are mine, and 3rd is friend, but same parameters -- no legacy, big money or fame. All public school kids.

Your third statement is accurate but relevant to only a small number. Most admits don't fall into these considerations.