a final warning to high school students in the college admissions game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

+1000 This is the stuff Questbridge and others need to introduce to kids. That they will deal with these examples all the time, and you need to decide how it will affect you or not. Seems like these kids are woefully unprepared for the cultural and social dynamics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

That is 100% true and what my experience was at an Ivy. It was pretty isolating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

Russell Crowe as John Nash had a similar experience at Princeton in the 40s.

I read Sonia Sotomayor's memoir some years ago and remember that her descriptions of transitioning to life at Princeton made it sound really rough for someone who didn't have a privileged background.

No doubt, but she also went there about 50 years ago. There are a lot more women and minorities there now than in 1976.

You are not going to be particularly aware of students who come from very rich families, because university life revolves around activities that are largely paid for and university-centered. If you can't afford the occasional off-campus extras, that will become more noticeable - both for you and for others.

What's tough is that there's a sink or swim ethos that survives to this day. If admission to a school what Princeton is what validates you, struggling at a school that admitted you de-legitimizes you. That can mess with your head. Of course, it's about finding the right balance between being challenged and being overwhelmed.

[Anonymous]

We have a college sophomore and a high school sophomore. I have had middle school moms (!) poo-poo our college kid's choice (and it's a competitive D1 state flagship). "I think my kid can do better than that" pervades their whole attitude. I walk away, chuckling to myself. I chalk it up to these mothers of younger kids not having gone through the college admissions process yet. It can be quite humbling...

I have also had middle school moms corner me to interrogate me ("interrogate" doesn't feel like too strong of a word...) about why their middle schooler should join the same EC as our kid when they start HS. I will politely explain the benefits and the mom will say some version of "I'll think about it, I'm not sure yet." You're not sure? Let your child decide, for gosh sake.

It's very strange, but I'm seeing it more and more. This weird desperation on the part of the mothers to run the labyrinth and game it out. I find it highly distasteful, personally. Our kids classes, activities, and college choices are their own choices. I think that is the way it should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

Russell Crowe as John Nash had a similar experience at Princeton in the 40s.

I read Sonia Sotomayor's memoir some years ago and remember that her descriptions of transitioning to life at Princeton made it sound really rough for someone who didn't have a privileged background.

No doubt, but she also went there about 50 years ago. There are a lot more women and minorities there now than in 1976.

You are not going to be particularly aware of students who come from very rich families, because university life revolves around activities that are largely paid for and university-centered. If you can't afford the occasional off-campus extras, that will become more noticeable - both for you and for others.

What's tough is that there's a sink or swim ethos that survives to this day. If admission to a school what Princeton is what validates you, struggling at a school that admitted you de-legitimizes you. That can mess with your head. Of course, it's about finding the right balance between being challenged and being overwhelmed.

I am having a hard time agreeing with this. I mean you know which Eating Clubs attract the rich crowd and you see the parties. You make conversations with people in your classes, and when they say they and a group are spending the weekend in NYC...well, they probably aren't staying at the youth hostel or in outer-Queens. Sometimes your roommate is pretty darn wealthy, so it's unavoidable.

I suppose if you just seek out other QB kids and that's where you spend all your time...but kids get the lay of the land pretty darn quick. Honestly, it may be misguided, but 1/2 the reason some people seek out these schools is that they hope they connect with Bezos' kid (believe he transferred to MIT) or someone similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

This is probably the most unlikely theory.

I went to a private high school that had uber-rich kids as well as trailer park kids on scholarships. (Many others, like me, had parents with good incomes e.g. doctors and lawyers but not uber-rich.) You have no idea how much smoldering resentment the poor kids had for the rich kids. You drive a beat up old junker and the other kids have brand new BMWs. The sad part was that the poor kids thought all the rich kids were snobs who looked down on them, when in fact the rich kids didn't think about them at all.

As bad as differences in income can be, differences in preparedness can be worse.

My kid went to a top ten university & got tons of financial aid. Kid definitely felt a bit intimidated by wealthy friends. But at least kid could compete in the classroom.

Kid was a tutor at the school, & said a lot of the football players & URMs were overwhelmed academically and felt alienated from the students who got in on their academic merits.

I know people think they are being helpful by urging unprepared kids to apply to these pressure-cooker colleges, but in many cases they will be better off at good schools a notch or 2 down academically.

This is partly why TO doesn't serve students well. Grade inflation makes them think they are super high achievers, when in fact, they are just above average and would find really tough schools difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could some of this issue (or most of it) be caused by the test optional trend of the last 4 years?

I imagined if you were an average or slightly above average student with an inflated GPA who got into one of these intense schools via test optional, starting behind everyone else from the get go would be very stressful and demoralizing.

Probably it contributed.

I think there’s a strong connection. If you got a 1350 and they are expecting the work of someone who can get a 1570 then yes it would be challenging. The amount of reading given requires a very high level of reading comprehension and to be able to read fast, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with QB and colleges with low income kids is nobody gives them a crash course in social dynamics when you throw $65k kids into a pool where the majority are wealthy and super wealthy.

First, it looks as if Quon is probably a quirky, thriving Princeton student who’s had problems with other kids getting tired of his quirkiness. He’s not a monster, and they’re not necessarily monsters, but quirkiness is simply a challenging part of life, like being fat or being very short.

Second, a lot of aggressive QB-type kids have been swimming with the rich sharks since they were babies. They know everything about the rich sharks. I don’t think the aggressive, sophisticated QB kids have any more trouble relating to rich snobs than sheltered rich softies do.

Third, I think what the more sheltered QB kids might not understand, and what the rich snobs don’t understand, is that rude snobbery is a symptom of dysfunction. Figuring out how to keep rich snobs from hurting you is as important as figuring out how to keep psychopaths from killing you, but there’s no more reason to envy rich snobs than to envy psychopaths.

QB kids are talented go-getters who can achieve anything.

Many, if not most, rich kids try hard to act like normal people. They may have only a vague idea that they’re especially rich. They might have cars and nice clothes, but they aren’t driving ultra-fancy cars or wearing designer clothes all day. They understand that they’ve had advantages that poor kids haven’t had. They admire the grit and talent of the poor kids who are sitting in college with them.

The rich college kids who act like rude jerks suffer from parental neglect, poor parenting, personality disorders, or some combination of those three things. They have poor chances of survival outside of their protected bubbles. They’re like dumb, lazy, captive lobsters being kept alive so that the QB kids have something fresh to eat.

And that’s the point of how Princeton works. The rich kids get four fun years of partying. The Quons get to learn about the rich kids and figure out how to take them down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

This is probably the most unlikely theory.

I agree completely. I did not get that vibe AT ALL. To me, he radiated deep loneliness and sadness. My heart aches for him. I hope he gets the right support. No one should feel that way. 😢

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with QB and colleges with low income kids is nobody gives them a crash course in social dynamics when you throw $65k kids into a pool where the majority are wealthy and super wealthy.

Lots of focus on academics and traditional college life, but nobody gives the “scared straight” talk about how jarring the different socio-economic strata may be.

There was an article several years back about how one Ivy school (it may have been Princeton) would give FA kids free tickets to student events and what not (that required an entry fee), but you had to wait in a separate line that basically “outed” you as poor. Well, the poor kids just stopped going until someone in the administration asked.

Also, it was only recently that many of these schools decided that they wouldn’t have students do work study in the dining halls, because it just created a terrible dynamic betweeen rich and poor.

Maybe they are starting to wake up to this…don’t know.

It depends on what statistics you look at. Princeton has reported that over 60% of students now receive some financial aid, but no doubt the student body is predominantly drawn from higher-income families.

They give financial aid to families making $250k, so it skews what the study body is like.

A dionk HHI of $250k is a bit different than a HHI of $65k for a family of 5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with QB and colleges with low income kids is nobody gives them a crash course in social dynamics when you throw $65k kids into a pool where the majority are wealthy and super wealthy.

First, it looks as if Quon is probably a quirky, thriving Princeton student who’s had problems with other kids getting tired of his quirkiness. He’s not a monster, and they’re not necessarily monsters, but quirkiness is simply a challenging part of life, like being fat or being very short.

Second, a lot of aggressive QB-type kids have been swimming with the rich sharks since they were babies. They know everything about the rich sharks. I don’t think the aggressive, sophisticated QB kids have any more trouble relating to rich snobs than sheltered rich softies do.

Third, I think what the more sheltered QB kids might not understand, and what the rich snobs don’t understand, is that rude snobbery is a symptom of dysfunction. Figuring out how to keep rich snobs from hurting you is as important as figuring out how to keep psychopaths from killing you, but there’s no more reason to envy rich snobs than to envy psychopaths.

QB kids are talented go-getters who can achieve anything.

Many, if not most, rich kids try hard to act like normal people. They may have only a vague idea that they’re especially rich. They might have cars and nice clothes, but they aren’t driving ultra-fancy cars or wearing designer clothes all day. They understand that they’ve had advantages that poor kids haven’t had. They admire the grit and talent of the poor kids who are sitting in college with them.

The rich college kids who act like rude jerks suffer from parental neglect, poor parenting, personality disorders, or some combination of those three things. They have poor chances of survival outside of their protected bubbles. They’re like dumb, lazy, captive lobsters being kept alive so that the QB kids have something fresh to eat.

And that’s the point of how Princeton works. The rich kids get four fun years of partying. The Quons get to learn about the rich kids and figure out how to take them down.

I used to do alumni interviews with QB kids and not a single one struck me as fitting this profile. A total of 30 kids over 5 years doesn't make a sample set, but they were all public school kids from lower income school districts. I never interviewed a QB kid from even a magnet or private school.

I would assume that lower-income kids at Sidwell don't need or apply to QB. They know that if accepted to one of these schools, that it is free and yes, they have been swimming with the sharks for many years.

[Anonymous]

Quon, wow, such a brave video and so true! I didn’t go to Princeton, but I could have said the same things about where I went.

It’s a big wide world out here and you’ll get here. Don’t take life advice from your professors. Make your own path. They can teach their subjects but that’s it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Could some of this issue (or most of it) be caused by the test optional trend of the last 4 years?

I imagined if you were an average or slightly above average student with an inflated GPA who got into one of these intense schools via test optional, starting behind everyone else from the get go would be very stressful and demoralizing.

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with QB and colleges with low income kids is nobody gives them a crash course in social dynamics when you throw $65k kids into a pool where the majority are wealthy and super wealthy.

Lots of focus on academics and traditional college life, but nobody gives the “scared straight” talk about how jarring the different socio-economic strata may be.

There was an article several years back about how one Ivy school (it may have been Princeton) would give FA kids free tickets to student events and what not (that required an entry fee), but you had to wait in a separate line that basically “outed” you as poor. Well, the poor kids just stopped going until someone in the administration asked.

Also, it was only recently that many of these schools decided that they wouldn’t have students do work study in the dining halls, because it just created a terrible dynamic betweeen rich and poor.

Maybe they are starting to wake up to this…don’t know.

I don't think that's Princeton. They don't charge for any student events.

The school profiled solved the problem by eliminating entry fees to events and then just wrapping into the "Fees" charge for Tuition and Fees. The FA kids were then free, while full pay were still paying, just up-front vs. per event.

I will try to find the article. Think it was NY Times.

I remember one of those NYT articles. It was thoughtful and thought-provoking.

DH and I both benefited greatly from our Ivy & similar educations. Our families were not wealthy, and we were the first to go to “elite” colleges. As a result of that NYT article, we started donating to our schools’ “first generation/low income” programs.

In addition to tuition/housing etc, they all now include the extras to help first gen/low income students blend in a bit more with their peers, socially - the same new laptop that their classmates tend to have, the mainstream/typical sneakers or boots or North Face winter coat or whatever if they feel more comfortable in the gear that most kids are wearing around campus. Plus money for the random extra fees that most students rarely think about, now done much more subtly than in the past.

Looking back, I had just enough of those things to blend in and feel comfortable. But I know how different my experience might have been/felt if I had not. DH and I are more than happy to pay it forward now. If you or your spouse/partner benefited from attending an elite college, consider checking the school’s website and donating to a program like this. I know Princeton, Brown, and Duke have them - likely others, too.