Regional IB programs - four years later

[Anonymous]

Other Kennedy parent, I worry I came on a bit strong. We are on the same side despite disagreeing about the administration. I am totally out of the loop on Kennedy parent gossip, but it's this kind of push pull is something I've seen before, and the complaints often have more to do with cultural differences and misunderstandings than the stuff we all care about: our kids.

Yours got into college too, right? Go cavs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Among the schools that offer both AP and IB, about 2/3 of the students choose AP and 1/3 IB. You can argue the students vote with their feet and follow the more beneficial program. For the exams, IB has a higher passing rate, possibly indicating that it attracts stronger students.

It seems redundant to offer both, not sure the IB diploma is that much more of an indicator of rigorous high school coursework and they are essentially equivalent. For people that like to have choices, it’s probably worth keeping it.

The regional IB programs feel somewhat of a second rate choice, the very strong students don’t need it, and they seem to have a very persistent marketing pitch.

In conclusion, meh.

This but our school has few AP classes and no advanced math after calculus which is a huge issue.

There’s no advanced math after IB HL Calculus either. I’m willing to bet that the AP offering at your school is better than what’s offered in the IB program.

It's not called IB HL Calc. It's call IB HL Math Analysis, which is a two year course that covers a few years worth of math using applications. It delves much deeper into the math concepts that regular math classes.

https://www.ibo.org/contentassets/5895a05412144fe890312bad52b17044/subject-brief-dp-math-analysis-and-approaches-en.pdf

They offer this at Kennedy, to the best of my knowledge. Am I wrong? I have the dumb math kid who is in the SL version.

I'm really tired of hearing my kid's high school get bashed by people who would never send their kids there regardless. Hearing you bash Ms. Davis and the other teachers who have invested so much of their time into our kids is also disheartening. One thing I think most of you don't understand (I suspect most of you never had the luxury of understanding), is learning for its own sake is important. We didn't want our kid to take IB to go to a "top college," or keep up with W schools, we wanted them to go because the classes would challenge and interest them and play to their strengths. We wanted them to do IB because writing is something they do best. Taking AP exams is joyless. Learning, and learning how to learn is part of what makes an adaptable, well-rounded member of society who can find a job and be a good person.

When our kid got into Kennedy and not RMIB I was relieved. I didn't want them in a toxic pressure cooker in the first place, I wanted them in a collaborative learning environment with peers and teachers that "got" them. Kennedy has given us that. In fact, I'm not sure another high school in the DCC could have done it as well. I must note we are zoned for Blair, so that was an option.

I really liked the former principal. He came from a middle school that holds a 2E program, and he told me once that those were the kind of kids he thought could integrate into the IB: intense, quirky kids with tons of potential who needed a smaller environment than the typical chaos of a Moco high school.

I still think he's right. Those kinds of kids (they don't have to be 2E) have thrived.

We don't have one of the high flyers at Kennedy IB. Our kid has struggled for grades at times (as far as I can tell they're *not* inflated, they don't do that at FARMS schools, where parents don't complain), but Kennedy's done a great job of meeting them where they're at. They turned in their ToK paper and it was fantastic. They've learned executive function. They take school seriously. They're happy.

And they've gotten into six colleges, all with merit, all ranked from the 50s to 100 in US News and World Report. We're still waiting to hear from the reaches.

I'm so tired of how toxic this place can be. How mean-spirited so many of you are about hard-working people doing their jobs, and minor children who are working so hard.

My kid's sitting for the IB diploma. They did the work. Will they pass? I don't know. I don't care. It was the experience that mattered, college credit is gravy. (Most of the schools they're applying to only give credit and don't let them out of core requirements anyway, so it doesn't matter as much. If some of you looked beyond state schools you'd find that true at most of the better slacs.)

Again, six merit offers. Happy kid. I know there's a lot of you who can't say the same.

I'm an IB Kennedy parent as well and while I do think the program has promise, we can't bury our head in the sand and act like it's in a good place right now.

It's not. I don't know how much blame lies at the feet of Ms. Davis specifically. But I've had several interactions and encounters with her and she is pretty problematic, disorganized and chaotic. The kids are also very frustrated with her. Talk to them about what they think of her.

So while you're here doing PR on her behalf, do the work to talk to people about what they think is wrong and stop trying to dismiss the lived experiences of others.

The previous principal you're talking about, Dr. Rubens, was widely disliked and blamed for the neglect and mediocrity that Kennedy has suffered from. Ms. Adamson was brought in for a clean-up job.

You don't have to take my word it. Look at the MSDE Student and Staff surveys about the climate at Kennedy. Spoiler alert: It wasn't good. And that's an indictment of Dr. Rubens' leadership.

I'm not trying to do "PR" I've had a lot of interactions with Ms. Davis. I find she can sometimes get flustered and go off-tangent when talking to me, but I do it too. I feel like it's friendly, not chaotic or disorganized. I'm not crazy about the language you're using to describe her... Calling a person "problematic" has come to signify something quite serious, and I don't want to know why you'd go there. I suspect we would disagree.

My kid likes Ms Davis. Did you go to the school plays she put on last year?

Kennedy isn't perfect. It does suffer from apathy, although that looks less like checked out staff and more like overworked ones to me. It doesn't have a wealth of clubs and opportunities like you'd find at a wealthier school, but most of that is pure economics. With more money they could do more stuff. Kennedy isn't the first high FARMS school my child has attended. I suspect it might be yours.

With our kids coming in, Kennedy got a new parent association. Your opinion of Dr. Rubens would match mine of their effectiveness, and ability to integrate with the rest of the school community.

But none of that really matters to my kid. They're happy, they got into colleges, the colleges are giving us money, they learned things, it's all good.

Because Kennedy isn't our first FARMS school, it's also not the first time I've seen the culture class between people who are used to being treated like clients and people who are not. My expectations adjust for that. I consider that adaptation and empathy a life skill I want my child to learn.

Let me get this straight. You're holding the volunteer parent association to a higher standard than the staff who are hired and paid to run the school? You think somehow the PTA is the issue here and that if they'd done a better job at integrating with the rest of the school community as you claim, then what would have happened? And what are you aware of was done? Did you volunteer to lend your expertise and talents, since you believe they failed?

I'm not going to go further in about Ms. Davis and her flaws because if you are a parent at Kennedy and you think the school play she held was great, then I don't think you're in touch with real student sentiment about her. Or Dr. Rubens, clearly.

Yeah, I thought the school play was great. I saw a bunch of hard working kids, Ms. Davis, Ms David's own kid (because they didn't have enough people), and a very small audience. I was depressed about the size of the audience. Really depressed, actually. I saw all three performances. I've attended other events. As I said, there's some apathy.

But I don't think it's fair to lay that on the teachers, and I'm not sure it's fair to lay it on the administration.

I also volunteered with the PTA, and they are very well-intentioned. But, as I said, I think a lot of this has to do with your expectations meeting practical application in a FARMS environment. It's not that you should lower them--it isn't a lowering, it's not that the standards are lower, but they are different. Not everyone is coming from your wheelhouse.

[Anonymous]

I also think, fellow Kennedy parent, that I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

One reason I ducked out was because I find watching the clash between the clash between people who expect their demands met and people who ask what they can do to help to be really depressing. The former always win, and it is not always helpful.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, only one clash between there. Edits.

[Anonymous]

8th grade parent here
My kiddo got into the Kennedy IB program and our home school has excellent academics, so there is no bad option.
Why should (or shouldn’t) we pick Kennedy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:8th grade parent here
My kiddo got into the Kennedy IB program and our home school has excellent academics, so there is no bad option.
Why should (or shouldn’t) we pick Kennedy?

Because we both agree about the cohort. I don't mean this in an "exclusive" way. I mean this in a having the opportunity to move through four years with the same kids doing the same things. If that's important, pick Kennedy.

If after school clubs are important to you, don't pick Kennedy.

If sports are important to you, in terms of getting a spot, pick Kennedy. If well-funded sports are important to you, do not.

And your kid *may* have a competitive edge coming from Kennedy IB and getting into college.

But be realistic. Don't expect an involved parent body, or a well-funded PTA, or very many of the bells and whistles other schools get. The kids can go to Europe with the English department, but that's a self-pay, extracurricular thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Don't expect an involved parent body, or a well-funded PTA, or very many of the bells and whistles other schools get. The kids can go to Europe with the English department, but that's a self-pay, extracurricular thing.

Isn’t part of the MCPS calculus that parents accustomed to bells and whistles will bring them along? or fundraise for them? or just buy them?

[Anonymous]

Just an off-topic question on the school play, from a non-Kennedy parent.

My child has some MS friends at Kennedy IB, and they reported that there is not a drama program. No theater elective, no fall play or spring musical.

I can't imagine that's true, but is it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also think, fellow Kennedy parent, that I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

One reason I ducked out was because I find watching the clash between the clash between people who expect their demands met and people who ask what they can do to help to be really depressing. The former always win, and it is not always helpful.

What demands do you think are being asked to be met that you think are unrealistic or unfair? I'm not sure I understand.

[Anonymous]

I looked at the Maryland survey report for Kennedy, btw...

Yeah, it's a poor school. By which I mean a lot of poor kids go there. Many are ESOL. Many come from families that aren't like yours. The test scores, all those metrics are going to be low. That's how it is in America. Getting a new principal isn't going to change that. If that bugs a prospective parent, they should pick another school.

But those kids are still great and the people who teach them are still dedicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also think, fellow Kennedy parent, that I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

One reason I ducked out was because I find watching the clash between the clash between people who expect their demands met and people who ask what they can do to help to be really depressing. The former always win, and it is not always helpful.

What demands do you think are being asked to be met that you think are unrealistic or unfair? I'm not sure I understand.

It's not the specific demands, it's that they are conveyed as demands. You think of your public school as something that is owed to you as a taxpayer. It's employees work for you, in a sense. This comes across in the way you talk about them. I'm not trying to be rude, I don't know if you even realize you're doing it.

I get it. I understand entitlement. And none of what you expect is wrong. We all want excellence for our kids.

But, there is another side, where people are working hard, and they need stuff. And they don't have enough stuff. And when you come to them with a list of requirements, it's more likely to be read as an indictment of their performance. And the thing is... you're not actually their boss.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but I've been on that side too. (Never as a teacher or admin, but I ran some programs at my kids' school years ago.)

When you add diversity of race, class, religion, professions, language, etc to all of this you need to account for that. I don't mean in a social justice way. I mean, something like the school play, if it wasn't good enough for you (I liked it), ask, how can I make this better? Should I show up? Could I volunteer? What stuff do they need? Maybe I should ask. Etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Among the schools that offer both AP and IB, about 2/3 of the students choose AP and 1/3 IB. You can argue the students vote with their feet and follow the more beneficial program. For the exams, IB has a higher passing rate, possibly indicating that it attracts stronger students.

It seems redundant to offer both, not sure the IB diploma is that much more of an indicator of rigorous high school coursework and they are essentially equivalent. For people that like to have choices, it’s probably worth keeping it.

The regional IB programs feel somewhat of a second rate choice, the very strong students don’t need it, and they seem to have a very persistent marketing pitch.

In conclusion, meh.

This but our school has few AP classes and no advanced math after calculus which is a huge issue.

There’s no advanced math after IB HL Calculus either. I’m willing to bet that the AP offering at your school is better than what’s offered in the IB program.

It's not called IB HL Calc. It's call IB HL Math Analysis, which is a two year course that covers a few years worth of math using applications. It delves much deeper into the math concepts that regular math classes.

https://www.ibo.org/contentassets/5895a05412144fe890312bad52b17044/subject-brief-dp-math-analysis-and-approaches-en.pdf

They offer this at Kennedy, to the best of my knowledge. Am I wrong? I have the dumb math kid who is in the SL version.

I'm really tired of hearing my kid's high school get bashed by people who would never send their kids there regardless. Hearing you bash Ms. Davis and the other teachers who have invested so much of their time into our kids is also disheartening. One thing I think most of you don't understand (I suspect most of you never had the luxury of understanding), is learning for its own sake is important. We didn't want our kid to take IB to go to a "top college," or keep up with W schools, we wanted them to go because the classes would challenge and interest them and play to their strengths. We wanted them to do IB because writing is something they do best. Taking AP exams is joyless. Learning, and learning how to learn is part of what makes an adaptable, well-rounded member of society who can find a job and be a good person.

When our kid got into Kennedy and not RMIB I was relieved. I didn't want them in a toxic pressure cooker in the first place, I wanted them in a collaborative learning environment with peers and teachers that "got" them. Kennedy has given us that. In fact, I'm not sure another high school in the DCC could have done it as well. I must note we are zoned for Blair, so that was an option.

I really liked the former principal. He came from a middle school that holds a 2E program, and he told me once that those were the kind of kids he thought could integrate into the IB: intense, quirky kids with tons of potential who needed a smaller environment than the typical chaos of a Moco high school.

I still think he's right. Those kinds of kids (they don't have to be 2E) have thrived.

We don't have one of the high flyers at Kennedy IB. Our kid has struggled for grades at times (as far as I can tell they're *not* inflated, they don't do that at FARMS schools, where parents don't complain), but Kennedy's done a great job of meeting them where they're at. They turned in their ToK paper and it was fantastic. They've learned executive function. They take school seriously. They're happy.

And they've gotten into six colleges, all with merit, all ranked from the 50s to 100 in US News and World Report. We're still waiting to hear from the reaches.

I'm so tired of how toxic this place can be. How mean-spirited so many of you are about hard-working people doing their jobs, and minor children who are working so hard.

My kid's sitting for the IB diploma. They did the work. Will they pass? I don't know. I don't care. It was the experience that mattered, college credit is gravy. (Most of the schools they're applying to only give credit and don't let them out of core requirements anyway, so it doesn't matter as much. If some of you looked beyond state schools you'd find that true at most of the better slacs.)

Again, six merit offers. Happy kid. I know there's a lot of you who can't say the same.

I'm an IB Kennedy parent as well and while I do think the program has promise, we can't bury our head in the sand and act like it's in a good place right now.

It's not. I don't know how much blame lies at the feet of Ms. Davis specifically. But I've had several interactions and encounters with her and she is pretty problematic, disorganized and chaotic. The kids are also very frustrated with her. Talk to them about what they think of her.

So while you're here doing PR on her behalf, do the work to talk to people about what they think is wrong and stop trying to dismiss the lived experiences of others.

The previous principal you're talking about, Dr. Rubens, was widely disliked and blamed for the neglect and mediocrity that Kennedy has suffered from. Ms. Adamson was brought in for a clean-up job.

You don't have to take my word it. Look at the MSDE Student and Staff surveys about the climate at Kennedy. Spoiler alert: It wasn't good. And that's an indictment of Dr. Rubens' leadership.

I'm not trying to do "PR" I've had a lot of interactions with Ms. Davis. I find she can sometimes get flustered and go off-tangent when talking to me, but I do it too. I feel like it's friendly, not chaotic or disorganized. I'm not crazy about the language you're using to describe her... Calling a person "problematic" has come to signify something quite serious, and I don't want to know why you'd go there. I suspect we would disagree.

My kid likes Ms Davis. Did you go to the school plays she put on last year?

Kennedy isn't perfect. It does suffer from apathy, although that looks less like checked out staff and more like overworked ones to me. It doesn't have a wealth of clubs and opportunities like you'd find at a wealthier school, but most of that is pure economics. With more money they could do more stuff. Kennedy isn't the first high FARMS school my child has attended. I suspect it might be yours.

With our kids coming in, Kennedy got a new parent association. Your opinion of Dr. Rubens would match mine of their effectiveness, and ability to integrate with the rest of the school community.

But none of that really matters to my kid. They're happy, they got into colleges, the colleges are giving us money, they learned things, it's all good.

Because Kennedy isn't our first FARMS school, it's also not the first time I've seen the culture class between people who are used to being treated like clients and people who are not. My expectations adjust for that. I consider that adaptation and empathy a life skill I want my child to learn.

Let me get this straight. You're holding the volunteer parent association to a higher standard than the staff who are hired and paid to run the school? You think somehow the PTA is the issue here and that if they'd done a better job at integrating with the rest of the school community as you claim, then what would have happened? And what are you aware of was done? Did you volunteer to lend your expertise and talents, since you believe they failed?

I'm not going to go further in about Ms. Davis and her flaws because if you are a parent at Kennedy and you think the school play she held was great, then I don't think you're in touch with real student sentiment about her. Or Dr. Rubens, clearly.

Yeah, I thought the school play was great. I saw a bunch of hard working kids, Ms. Davis, Ms David's own kid (because they didn't have enough people), and a very small audience. I was depressed about the size of the audience. Really depressed, actually. I saw all three performances. I've attended other events. As I said, there's some apathy.

But I don't think it's fair to lay that on the teachers, and I'm not sure it's fair to lay it on the administration.

I also volunteered with the PTA, and they are very well-intentioned. But, as I said, I think a lot of this has to do with your expectations meeting practical application in a FARMS environment. It's not that you should lower them--it isn't a lowering, it's not that the standards are lower, but they are different. Not everyone is coming from your wheelhouse.

If admin and teachers aren't responsible for the "apathy," as you put it, who do you hold responsible? No one? So the school is destined to be this way forever just because that's the way it is?

Part of the reason for the low attendance and participation of the play has to do with the disorganization Ms. Davis has demonstrated that you don't want to acknowledge and address. The play had low attendance because it was planned and promoted at the last minute. And it wasn't because people didn't want to do it. But she did it with short notice and not enough lead up time for kids to feel comfortable auditioning for the play or to get the word out to the school community for them to show up.

The kids and parents were frustrated by last-minute aspect of it, and again, just ask the kids how they felt about it and they'll tell you.

Look at the list of MCPS high school plays that are put out and promoted at the beginning of the year by MCPS. Kennedy's plays are never on them because they're never planned and submitted in time. For whatever reason, you think the admin and Ms. Davis is not responsible for this. Ok. I don't know who else you would hold responsible then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also think, fellow Kennedy parent, that I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

One reason I ducked out was because I find watching the clash between the clash between people who expect their demands met and people who ask what they can do to help to be really depressing. The former always win, and it is not always helpful.

What demands do you think are being asked to be met that you think are unrealistic or unfair? I'm not sure I understand.

It's not the specific demands, it's that they are conveyed as demands. You think of your public school as something that is owed to you as a taxpayer. It's employees work for you, in a sense. This comes across in the way you talk about them. I'm not trying to be rude, I don't know if you even realize you're doing it.

I get it. I understand entitlement. And none of what you expect is wrong. We all want excellence for our kids.

But, there is another side, where people are working hard, and they need stuff. And they don't have enough stuff. And when you come to them with a list of requirements, it's more likely to be read as an indictment of their performance. And the thing is... you're not actually their boss.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but I've been on that side too. (Never as a teacher or admin, but I ran some programs at my kids' school years ago.)

When you add diversity of race, class, religion, professions, language, etc to all of this you need to account for that. I don't mean in a social justice way. I mean, something like the school play, if it wasn't good enough for you (I liked it), ask, how can I make this better? Should I show up? Could I volunteer? What stuff do they need? Maybe I should ask. Etc.

You're talking a bit out of both sides of your mouth here and I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. So I'll just agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just an off-topic question on the school play, from a non-Kennedy parent.

My child has some MS friends at Kennedy IB, and they reported that there is not a drama program. No theater elective, no fall play or spring musical.

I can't imagine that's true, but is it?

One of the English teachers (who is great) was teaching IB theater, my kid took it in 9th grade as a non-IB elective, which was also an option. (They did a lot less work than the IB kids.) It was on Zoom, so... I mean that was weird, but kid loved it.

There have been plays, not sure what happened with the musical last year. All of this runs in student involvement and teacher's time after school. Could there be more parent involvement? Yeah, and it would help.

They also have a marching band and a small string ensemble who aren't bad. And a dance team who are pretty fabulous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also think, fellow Kennedy parent, that I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

One reason I ducked out was because I find watching the clash between the clash between people who expect their demands met and people who ask what they can do to help to be really depressing. The former always win, and it is not always helpful.

What demands do you think are being asked to be met that you think are unrealistic or unfair? I'm not sure I understand.

It's not the specific demands, it's that they are conveyed as demands. You think of your public school as something that is owed to you as a taxpayer. It's employees work for you, in a sense. This comes across in the way you talk about them. I'm not trying to be rude, I don't know if you even realize you're doing it.

I get it. I understand entitlement. And none of what you expect is wrong. We all want excellence for our kids.

But, there is another side, where people are working hard, and they need stuff. And they don't have enough stuff. And when you come to them with a list of requirements, it's more likely to be read as an indictment of their performance. And the thing is... you're not actually their boss.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but I've been on that side too. (Never as a teacher or admin, but I ran some programs at my kids' school years ago.)

When you add diversity of race, class, religion, professions, language, etc to all of this you need to account for that. I don't mean in a social justice way. I mean, something like the school play, if it wasn't good enough for you (I liked it), ask, how can I make this better? Should I show up? Could I volunteer? What stuff do they need? Maybe I should ask. Etc.

You're talking a bit out of both sides of your mouth here and I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. So I'll just agree to disagree.

Because I'm trying to make you understand there are, in fact, two sides. It's not just about what you expect.