What is a "donut hole family"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Typically a family that makes more than what qualifies for need-based aid but not enough *income* to pay tuition out of pocket without it having a huge impact on their lifestyle. Usually they don’t want to liquidate assets to make up the gap.

Right, because it makes no sense to sell your house to send a kid to Harvard undergrad, when a mid-rank college is giving your kid a full ride merit scholarship.

If it’s so obvious what they should choose, why are they so mad about choosing it?

They are angry that college tuition has increased at a pace in extreme excess of inflation. They are angry that the school that cost $8K in 1980 costs $80K today, instead of $30K (which is what it would cost had tuition increases kept pace with rather than exceeded inflation).

They want the best education possible for their kids because relative to their generation, their kids' generation is more likely to be shut out of purchasing a decent house, affording healthcare, having children, as the costs of those things have skyrocketed relative to everything else. They want their kids to be ok and it's much much harder to position the kids now for that than it was a generation or two ago.

That's why.

This is a good explanation for how I feel as a likely donut hole family. I understand that private colleges are selling a product that I (or really, my DD) are not simply entitled to take part in because of her achievements - there's a cost, and they'll look at all our means to cover that cost, which includes remortgaging to get home equity or significantly withdrawing from retirement accounts. And it sucks, because setting ourselves up poorly for retirement will be a greater burden on her. And it double sucks because she likely has fewer options than I did, growing up with lower income and really high stats (and lots of aid), which is the last thing I expected. And it triple sucks because we have only one child because of these significant expenses of child care, housing, college and retirement (and no family money).

DD will be fine, because despite all that we will have options and she will be able to go to college. But I'm still gobsmacked by the cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

A generation ago, schools toped out in the 30k range. With federal loans and modest parental contribution (or flat out grants if you are talking about the elite schools), everyone could afford them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody in their right mind thinks college cost increases over the past 25 years are not exorbitant.

and congress wants to put a cap on nurses pay, come on let's put some regulations around college costs.

I don’t disagree with you, at all. But I still don’t believe there’s any such thing as a donut hole family.

Anybody making $150K HHI will not qualify for aid, so explain to me how a family of 4 saves $400K to pay for college?

Assuming they make $70K HHI at 30 and by the time they are 45 they make $150K

By making it their top priority and living modestly in every other possible way. If they don’t want to do that, they can use publics.

Can you write out the budget for me?

Sure. You start by making $70k. You progress to making $150k, with fairly modest raises each year. You keep your expenses constant as they were at $70k. Just did the math in Excel and by simply doing that, not even investing the difference in 529s (which of course any sane person would do) it's over $430k after tax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

A generation ago, schools toped out in the 30k range. With federal loans and modest parental contribution (or flat out grants if you are talking about the elite schools), everyone could afford them

No. Absolutely false. Maybe everyone at your high school could afford them, but the idea that everyone in America could afford to send their kids to college AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY is so blind to reality as to be a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody in their right mind thinks college cost increases over the past 25 years are not exorbitant.

and congress wants to put a cap on nurses pay, come on let's put some regulations around college costs.

I don’t disagree with you, at all. But I still don’t believe there’s any such thing as a donut hole family.

Anybody making $150K HHI will not qualify for aid, so explain to me how a family of 4 saves $400K to pay for college?

Assuming they make $70K HHI at 30 and by the time they are 45 they make $150K

By making it their top priority and living modestly in every other possible way. If they don’t want to do that, they can use publics.

Can you write out the budget for me?

The premise is wrong. Someone with HHI of 150k and two kids in college will qualify for financial aid, absent other assets, at least at the best private colleges. Maybe not a free ride, but pretty significant aid. Then it's up to you to decide if you want to pay the difference, which should hurt a little, shouldn't it?
I mean, at $300k we don't qualify for aid. SO we have to decide whether it's worth it to write a check for $75k per year for Harvard etc (if kid gets in) or we are only willing to pay less, at a state school or lower ranked school where kids might get merit aid. I could argue it "hurts" us to have to think about this, as opposed to if we made $500k per year, but I don't any expect sympathy for that kind of entitlement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

A generation ago, schools toped out in the 30k range. With federal loans and modest parental contribution (or flat out grants if you are talking about the elite schools), everyone could afford them

No. Absolutely false. Maybe everyone at your high school could afford them, but the idea that everyone in America could afford to send their kids to college AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY is so blind to reality as to be a joke.

The elite private schools met full need a generation ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

They are the folks on this board always writing about seeking out big merit awards for their kids at $$$ schools they cannot afford (or don't want to drain their home equity and other assets to pay for -- they'd prefer the full-pay parents and endowment makers to pay for it instead).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the Midwest in the 80s and 90s. My dad was a partner at a mid sized law firm and did very well and my mom was a headmistress at a private school who also had a very high salary. My brother, sister and I went to Catholic schools and private single sex high schools. My dad was absolutely shocked when we didn't qualify for financial aid. My parents and school steered us to Catholic colleges where we would get lots of scholarships making their school look good, because we were high ACT and SAT scorers and the state school. My brother's school did have him apply to more "top colleges" but I did not apply to any schools like that. Maybe a few kids in my class went to schools like Notre Dame, Columbia, NYC, U of Chicago or small liberal art schools like Reed, Rice, etc. My dad and mom were from a working class mindset. They had zero debt, had paid off their mortgage, paid for their cars, etc. But they did not save or have a 529. My brother asked in HS if he had a college fund like his frieds at his prep school and they laughed. My dad honestly thought we would get work study and be able to get a good job in the summer, like he and my mom did (union jobs) that would pay for the school year.

My parents grew up very working class. When you are 18, you are on your own. My parents claimed me on their taxes so I got absolutely zero financial aid. But they didn't help me out because they thought I should be able to support myself on the minimal loans I took out (like $1500 a semester) and measely scholarship (it covered my tuition, but not books or housing). I worked 3 jobs in college and it was horrible. I was always worried about money, always tired, always hungry. I was food insecure. Meanwhile my dad was making $500K a year in the 90s and my mom was making $90K. My parents are not flashy and didn't owe me anything, but I sure as hell didn't want my kids to experience what I did. Imagine being 18, the daughter of white collar jobs, and not really understanding rent, food, utiliities for a summer house when your sorority house is closed. I had super sketchy jobs: at a collection agency, as a personal assistant, as a bartender and waitress. That is what I could get.

My parents could not understand why I was in a sorority (it was literally $1500 a semester versus $7K a semester for the dorms and included food and parking). My parents think I'm hella bougie. I can't even tell you the horrible things I dealt with in college at my part-time jobs.

I did get a full scholarship to grad school because I worked my ass off in college and started a small business when most people were having fun and out drinking. But I was also very dependent on boyfriends in an unhealthy way and exposed to some really sketchy situations that as a parent I would never want my daughter or son to be in.

My parents judge me and my DH because we send our kids to public schools. We are both feds and we wanted to save for college. VA colleges are so competitive and I'm not sure if our kids have the test scores for them. I did go to an Ivy for grad school and I saw the advantages I have over others with my alumni network and networking. I still have resentment towards my dad who was confident I could find a job keeping a resource binder in the dorm that would magically pay my room and board or slinging food at the cafeteria that would miraculously pay $35K in tuition.

Wow, your parents are really special kinds of a-holes. I have a feeling that the "there's no such thing as donut hole families, only ones who didn't try hard enough" posters would get along great with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

A generation ago, schools toped out in the 30k range. With federal loans and modest parental contribution (or flat out grants if you are talking about the elite schools), everyone could afford them

No. Absolutely false. Maybe everyone at your high school could afford them, but the idea that everyone in America could afford to send their kids to college AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY is so blind to reality as to be a joke.

The elite private schools met full need a generation ago.

...with loans. Not grants. Loans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the Midwest in the 80s and 90s. My dad was a partner at a mid sized law firm and did very well and my mom was a headmistress at a private school who also had a very high salary. My brother, sister and I went to Catholic schools and private single sex high schools. My dad was absolutely shocked when we didn't qualify for financial aid. My parents and school steered us to Catholic colleges where we would get lots of scholarships making their school look good, because we were high ACT and SAT scorers and the state school. My brother's school did have him apply to more "top colleges" but I did not apply to any schools like that. Maybe a few kids in my class went to schools like Notre Dame, Columbia, NYC, U of Chicago or small liberal art schools like Reed, Rice, etc. My dad and mom were from a working class mindset. They had zero debt, had paid off their mortgage, paid for their cars, etc. But they did not save or have a 529. My brother asked in HS if he had a college fund like his frieds at his prep school and they laughed. My dad honestly thought we would get work study and be able to get a good job in the summer, like he and my mom did (union jobs) that would pay for the school year.

My parents grew up very working class. When you are 18, you are on your own. My parents claimed me on their taxes so I got absolutely zero financial aid. But they didn't help me out because they thought I should be able to support myself on the minimal loans I took out (like $1500 a semester) and measely scholarship (it covered my tuition, but not books or housing). I worked 3 jobs in college and it was horrible. I was always worried about money, always tired, always hungry. I was food insecure. Meanwhile my dad was making $500K a year in the 90s and my mom was making $90K. My parents are not flashy and didn't owe me anything, but I sure as hell didn't want my kids to experience what I did. Imagine being 18, the daughter of white collar jobs, and not really understanding rent, food, utiliities for a summer house when your sorority house is closed. I had super sketchy jobs: at a collection agency, as a personal assistant, as a bartender and waitress. That is what I could get.

My parents could not understand why I was in a sorority (it was literally $1500 a semester versus $7K a semester for the dorms and included food and parking). My parents think I'm hella bougie. I can't even tell you the horrible things I dealt with in college at my part-time jobs.

I did get a full scholarship to grad school because I worked my ass off in college and started a small business when most people were having fun and out drinking. But I was also very dependent on boyfriends in an unhealthy way and exposed to some really sketchy situations that as a parent I would never want my daughter or son to be in.

My parents judge me and my DH because we send our kids to public schools. We are both feds and we wanted to save for college. VA colleges are so competitive and I'm not sure if our kids have the test scores for them. I did go to an Ivy for grad school and I saw the advantages I have over others with my alumni network and networking. I still have resentment towards my dad who was confident I could find a job keeping a resource binder in the dorm that would magically pay my room and board or slinging food at the cafeteria that would miraculously pay $35K in tuition.

Wow, your parents are really special kinds of a-holes. I have a feeling that the "there's no such thing as donut hole families, only ones who didn't try hard enough" posters would get along great with them.

Uh no her parents are very similar to the donut hole families, actually. Didn't save for college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

+1 I was a first gen student but my dad was an executive with a good UMC salary. Mom was a SAHM until my sister started HS and then she went to work as a secretary with her salary going to college expenses. Sister and I were both accepted to expensive (for the time) OOS public and private schools but my parents did not think it was at all worth it to pay for those vs. our in-state college options. So, that's where we went. And we've had good lives, gone to grad school (also public Us), happy in our careers. My dad ended up getting laid off when I was in college and never got another professional position. I'm really thankful he and my mom did not overextend to pay for the expensive school I'd have liked to go to. Instead they saved well for retirement and we've never had to worry about them financially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

No, it's not true that everyone could afford it a generation ago. Sorry, but you were in a bubble if you thought so.

A generation ago, schools toped out in the 30k range. With federal loans and modest parental contribution (or flat out grants if you are talking about the elite schools), everyone could afford them

No. Absolutely false. Maybe everyone at your high school could afford them, but the idea that everyone in America could afford to send their kids to college AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY is so blind to reality as to be a joke.

The elite private schools met full need a generation ago.

They still do, and now it is 100% grant aid at the best schools, as opposed to loans. But PP was arguing that "everyone" could afford it then, including the so-called donut hole families, for whom PP says it is now uniquely difficult. My point was just absent a free ride, it was never easy to pay for college. Or at least not easier then than now.

[Anonymous]

The price and generous need aid for elite private schools is completely irrelevant to the vast majority of students and their families. Very, very few students can be admitted to those schools. And, students who are competitive for them will have many options for generous merit aid at strong schools.

There are a lot more schools a tier below that having an $80K+ list price with little merit aid. And then the high priced state Us that serve a lot of students, have really poor need aid, no merit aid and poor government support. That's a problem for many, many more students.

When I started college in 1987, the tuition/fees for one quarter at my college were about $500. Yes, that's not missing a zero.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Nobody in their right mind thinks college cost increases over the past 25 years are not exorbitant.

and congress wants to put a cap on nurses pay, come on let's put some regulations around college costs.

I don’t disagree with you, at all. But I still don’t believe there’s any such thing as a donut hole family.

Anybody making $150K HHI will not qualify for aid, so explain to me how a family of 4 saves $400K to pay for college?

Assuming they make $70K HHI at 30 and by the time they are 45 they make $150K

By making it their top priority and living modestly in every other possible way. If they don’t want to do that, they can use publics.

Can you write out the budget for me?

Sure. You start by making $70k. You progress to making $150k, with fairly modest raises each year. You keep your expenses constant as they were at $70k. Just did the math in Excel and by simply doing that, not even investing the difference in 529s (which of course any sane person would do) it's over $430k after tax.

But then you would not have kids at 32 when you can afford them, so why save for college if you never have kids or are you saying that you can raise 2 kids on $70K salary with day care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody in their right mind thinks college cost increases over the past 25 years are not exorbitant.

and congress wants to put a cap on nurses pay, come on let's put some regulations around college costs.

I don’t disagree with you, at all. But I still don’t believe there’s any such thing as a donut hole family.

Anybody making $150K HHI will not qualify for aid, so explain to me how a family of 4 saves $400K to pay for college?

Assuming they make $70K HHI at 30 and by the time they are 45 they make $150K

By making it their top priority and living modestly in every other possible way. If they don’t want to do that, they can use publics.

Can you write out the budget for me?

The premise is wrong. Someone with HHI of 150k and two kids in college will qualify for financial aid, absent other assets, at least at the best private colleges. Maybe not a free ride, but pretty significant aid. Then it's up to you to decide if you want to pay the difference, which should hurt a little, shouldn't it?
I mean, at $300k we don't qualify for aid. SO we have to decide whether it's worth it to write a check for $75k per year for Harvard etc (if kid gets in) or we are only willing to pay less, at a state school or lower ranked school where kids might get merit aid. I could argue it "hurts" us to have to think about this, as opposed to if we made $500k per year, but I don't any expect sympathy for that kind of entitlement.

I have two in college, HHI less than 150k, and do not receive any financial aid