Any advice on how to homeschool an independent, resistant learner?

[Anonymous]

I'm considering homeschooling, but stuck in a conundrum as my older child (8) is an atypical learner and is very resistant to teaching. But my older child really feels strongly about not wanting distance learning of any sort and wants me to teach her at home instead. At the same time, I have never been able to "teach" her anything as she is almost obsessively against anyone trying to teach her or make her do anything. So what I've done instead is just get her everything she needs to learn on her own, and she is a pretty independent learner. She is like DH who never liked school, never paid attention in school, daydreamed throughout every class, and then just did reading on his own. But they are both smart, curious, and have an inner drive for learning that is pretty much bulletproof to external forces.

I've done some test runs to see what a year of homeschooling look like, and well, it was not good. My older child is extremely stubborn, contrarian, and her personality is just to fight everything. And I feel a bit defeated. I am not sure if I can do it. Just getting her to do 20 minutes of school work pretty much wore us both out for the day. I am even trying to keep it flexible and geared to her interests. But it's not working. Is there any hope?

[Anonymous]

That is a tough one. Is she neurotypical? If she is special needs at all, I’m definitely not qualified to advise other than to ask for advice from your child’s doctor or treatment team.

8 is a tough, stubborn age. The “fun” and “easy” schoolwork is going away and being replaced with challenging things, plus they kinda want to test and see what happens if they say no to you. I have predictable, firm consequences for resistant behavior and grumbling. If you grumble about math, you must need more practice. Here’s another page. (This is also true for my house for non-school activities. If you grumble about emptying the dishwasher, you must need more practice. Let’s re-sort the silverware drawer.). It doesn’t always work with my stubborn 8 year old but it helps. He’s always allowed to remove himself from a situation to cool off, but he knows when he is cooled down, the very next thing he will do is the thing he was mad about in the first place. Sometimes it takes a while, but he knows he doesn’t get out of anything at the end and it just makes it longer for him.

Best of luck to you with this tough age! Remember to appreciate your sweet 8 year old and hug and love on her as well! She has a ton of positive qualities too - work on the relationship as well as the schoolwork!

[Anonymous]

Maybe try a montesorri style method - you have a list of the "must learn" items and then let her direct as much as possible. Maybe start slow and give her more independence after she demonstrates success. If you want her to learn to be a better reader and writer, she doesn't have to do book reports for example, she could write and perform a skit. If you're learning measurement, maybe she wants to bake or build a birdhouse (that requires measuring and cutting, etc).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That is a tough one. Is she neurotypical? If she is special needs at all, I’m definitely not qualified to advise other than to ask for advice from your child’s doctor or treatment team.

8 is a tough, stubborn age. The “fun” and “easy” schoolwork is going away and being replaced with challenging things, plus they kinda want to test and see what happens if they say no to you. I have predictable, firm consequences for resistant behavior and grumbling. If you grumble about math, you must need more practice. Here’s another page. (This is also true for my house for non-school activities. If you grumble about emptying the dishwasher, you must need more practice. Let’s re-sort the silverware drawer.). It doesn’t always work with my stubborn 8 year old but it helps. He’s always allowed to remove himself from a situation to cool off, but he knows when he is cooled down, the very next thing he will do is the thing he was mad about in the first place. Sometimes it takes a while, but he knows he doesn’t get out of anything at the end and it just makes it longer for him.

Best of luck to you with this tough age! Remember to appreciate your sweet 8 year old and hug and love on her as well! She has a ton of positive qualities too - work on the relationship as well as the schoolwork!

Thank you for your advice! I think you make a good point that we need to work on the relationship as much as the schoolwork, especially in the beginning.

She is not special needs, but I do see some ASD traits and ADHD traits, and I've always had to give her extra support in terms of social skills. We live in a state that requires schools to provide gifted IEPs to students who test at 97% or higher, and she is at 96%, so I think she is just barely in the "normal" range. Negative consequences has always backfired spectacularly with her, as she will always double-down and not back down ever, and go into a rage, but constant praise does work with her. I think the consequences you described would work great on my younger child, but not with my older.

[Anonymous]

Op,

I would read the kazdin method about creating behavior change through positive reinforcement.

If she’s been resistant to anyone teaching her throughout the years and especially if you’ve seen some red flags, I would urge you to contact your local children’s hospital and ask about a neuropsychological evaluation. It may be covered whole or in part by insurance.

I know that doesn’t answer to home school or not, but there seems to be some big issues looming and you need more information.

[Anonymous]

An 8 year old raging is a SN. Find out what’s causing this.

If you decide to homeschool, read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Unstuck-Target-Executive-Curriculum-Flexibility/dp/1598572032

Read it anyway. Your child has issues with flexible thinking, hence the doubling down and regulation, hence the rages. Unstuck was developed with kids on the spectrum and retested with kids who have adhd.

[Anonymous]

You might want to read up on “unschooling.” Before 2020 I would have said it was nuts, but now I think it could be the right approach for some kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op,

I would read the kazdin method about creating behavior change through positive reinforcement.

If she’s been resistant to anyone teaching her throughout the years and especially if you’ve seen some red flags, I would urge you to contact your local children’s hospital and ask about a neuropsychological evaluation. It may be covered whole or in part by insurance.

I know that doesn’t answer to home school or not, but there seems to be some big issues looming and you need more information.

Agree on Kazdin, but it’s not going to work in the short term. I would do Kazdin for a small aspect of homeschool, unschool the rest, and just go with the flow!

[Anonymous]

Tutors?

[Anonymous]

I'm not officially homeschooling, but I will be supplementing if I feel that our virtual schooling isn't up to par. My DS is resistant too. I found getting someone else to teach him works better. For example, I got him an online tutor and he much more willing to work with her. Also, online programs where I don't really have to do much work well. My ds has adhd and I'm starting to think high functioning autism as well.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like she doesn’t want to do school. She doesn’t want distance learning, but then pushes when you try to do homeschool?

I would try one more week of practice homeschool. Before you do, sit down with her and make a contract, which she needs to have input on and sign. Talk about what each of your roles will look like. Ask her what sort of reward she would like after a successful homeschooling week and write that down too. Try it for a week and if she breaks the contract over and over , keep her in real school.

[Anonymous]

I homeschool my three kids, and one of them, my ten year old son, sounds a lot like your daughter. He is bright and a quick learner. He's curious and enthusiastic about a lot of things. But he also has a strong preference for being self directed, and if I don't structure things clearly, he while whine, or dawdle, or turn in half hearted efforts that don't respect his best work. Because of this, our homeschool runs best when it is highly structured. Here's how we do it.

First of all, I thought about my kid and what his "currency" is. That is, what things motivate him to work hard. For my kid that list is easy: He is motivated to win, so activities that are competitive work well; he is motivated by having choice and control; and he is motivated by video games. He's also motivated by sugar, but I'm not willing to set up a system of food reinforcers.

Then we set up the following structure:

In our house, on Monday through Saturday until the dishes have been cleared from the table after dinner, and on Sunday until the dishes have been cleared from lunch, it's considered "school time". During "school" you can only do educational things, which we define very broadly. There is a list on the fridge of "school activities" which has things like

Read (a book, comic, magazine, etc. . . )
Make art
Build something (legos, woodworking, and cardboard boxes are his favorites here)
Cook something
Make lego robots
Take an online Taekwondo class
Facetime a relative
Go outside (they can do anything outside, other than bringing their iPad outside to play video games)
Attend a religious service
Watch a science or social studies documentary from an approved list
Use certain iPad apps that teach coding, math (for my 10 year old, Beast Academy is his favorite), or science (he likes something called Uzzinggo) or board games (one of his siblings likes online chess, and Go puzzles)
Play a musical instrument, including watching instructional youtube videos

etc . . . It's a long list, and my kids are frequently coming to me and asking that things be added to the list and the answer is almost always yes.

The "not school" list is basically TV and video games, but of course they can do "school" things when it is "not school".

Then, I watch what they do spontaneously. I have an idea in my head of what I want them to accomplish in a week or month or school year, and I sort of track how that compares to what they are choosing to do. So, for example, I want my kids to read at least 30 minutes a day. One of my kids reads way more than that on his own, two don't. I want my kids to learn to cook. My 10 year old loves to cook and chooses it a lot, but my oldest doesn't.

Once I see what they are doing, I make a list of tasks for each day. I try and keep the list short, and to make sure that I give a very clear picture of what "done" means. So, I don't write "clean your room", I write "wipe down surfaces and baseboards, run the vacuum, empty trashcans and take the bag to the curb". If possible, I'll give two choices on how to meet a goal, so it might say "do the next two pages in your math book OR play fraction war with mom for half an hour".

I generally aim to have my 10 year old's list have about 3 - 4 hours of work. His list includes things that are academic, but also chores. So, for example, on today's list it says that he needs to make lunch for the family. On tomorrow's list it has him washing his clothes. Take a shower, and brush your teeth are on the list every day.

On Sunday evening, my kids and I sit and look at the lists for the whole week.

The each day the kids need to finish their list. "Not school" time doesn't start until the dishes are cleared, and the day's list is done.

This works really well for my kid who sounds like yours. He has gone from whining about every assignment, to working efficiently so he can get back to making his own choices. Because he's motivated by control, he'll also do things like spontaneously picking science activities, so that I leave science off his list. Because he's motivated by winning, he'll try and race his siblings, e.g. by doing things before they're due. They can move almost anything up (e.g. do all 5 math packets on Monday and then have a math free week), but they can't, for example, take 7 showers on Monday and have a shower free week.

So far, it's working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:An 8 year old raging is a SN. Find out what’s causing this.

If you decide to homeschool, read this:
https://www.amazon.com/Unstuck-Target-Executive-Curriculum-Flexibility/dp/1598572032

Read it anyway. Your child has issues with flexible thinking, hence the doubling down and regulation, hence the rages. Unstuck was developed with kids on the spectrum and retested with kids who have adhd.

Yikes this book is $105. Can you tell me more about it so I can decide if it would help us?

FWIW I don't think my child would actually be diagnosed as ASD or ADHD, but she certainly has many similar traits and may be somewhere in that gray area. Academically, she excels in school and I think that is because she is very bright in terms of memory, comprehension, and abstract thinking and she is also very competitive and a bit of a perfectionist with school. We don't push her, she pushes herself. The rages have really gotten better as she has gotten older, and also we mostly stopped doing the things that cause her to rage (change something without her input, use "punishment" or negative consequences, be critical of her behavior, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I homeschool my three kids, and one of them, my ten year old son, sounds a lot like your daughter. He is bright and a quick learner. He's curious and enthusiastic about a lot of things. But he also has a strong preference for being self directed, and if I don't structure things clearly, he while whine, or dawdle, or turn in half hearted efforts that don't respect his best work. Because of this, our homeschool runs best when it is highly structured. Here's how we do it.

First of all, I thought about my kid and what his "currency" is. That is, what things motivate him to work hard. For my kid that list is easy: He is motivated to win, so activities that are competitive work well; he is motivated by having choice and control; and he is motivated by video games. He's also motivated by sugar, but I'm not willing to set up a system of food reinforcers.

Then we set up the following structure:

In our house, on Monday through Saturday until the dishes have been cleared from the table after dinner, and on Sunday until the dishes have been cleared from lunch, it's considered "school time". During "school" you can only do educational things, which we define very broadly. There is a list on the fridge of "school activities" which has things like

Read (a book, comic, magazine, etc. . . )
Make art
Build something (legos, woodworking, and cardboard boxes are his favorites here)
Cook something
Make lego robots
Take an online Taekwondo class
Facetime a relative
Go outside (they can do anything outside, other than bringing their iPad outside to play video games)
Attend a religious service
Watch a science or social studies documentary from an approved list
Use certain iPad apps that teach coding, math (for my 10 year old, Beast Academy is his favorite), or science (he likes something called Uzzinggo) or board games (one of his siblings likes online chess, and Go puzzles)
Play a musical instrument, including watching instructional youtube videos

etc . . . It's a long list, and my kids are frequently coming to me and asking that things be added to the list and the answer is almost always yes.

The "not school" list is basically TV and video games, but of course they can do "school" things when it is "not school".

Then, I watch what they do spontaneously. I have an idea in my head of what I want them to accomplish in a week or month or school year, and I sort of track how that compares to what they are choosing to do. So, for example, I want my kids to read at least 30 minutes a day. One of my kids reads way more than that on his own, two don't. I want my kids to learn to cook. My 10 year old loves to cook and chooses it a lot, but my oldest doesn't.

Once I see what they are doing, I make a list of tasks for each day. I try and keep the list short, and to make sure that I give a very clear picture of what "done" means. So, I don't write "clean your room", I write "wipe down surfaces and baseboards, run the vacuum, empty trashcans and take the bag to the curb". If possible, I'll give two choices on how to meet a goal, so it might say "do the next two pages in your math book OR play fraction war with mom for half an hour".

I generally aim to have my 10 year old's list have about 3 - 4 hours of work. His list includes things that are academic, but also chores. So, for example, on today's list it says that he needs to make lunch for the family. On tomorrow's list it has him washing his clothes. Take a shower, and brush your teeth are on the list every day.

On Sunday evening, my kids and I sit and look at the lists for the whole week.

The each day the kids need to finish their list. "Not school" time doesn't start until the dishes are cleared, and the day's list is done.

This works really well for my kid who sounds like yours. He has gone from whining about every assignment, to working efficiently so he can get back to making his own choices. Because he's motivated by control, he'll also do things like spontaneously picking science activities, so that I leave science off his list. Because he's motivated by winning, he'll try and race his siblings, e.g. by doing things before they're due. They can move almost anything up (e.g. do all 5 math packets on Monday and then have a math free week), but they can't, for example, take 7 showers on Monday and have a shower free week.

So far, it's working.

This seems similar to my understanding of Montessori mentioned up thread - choice within structure and eventually you have to do it all on some fashion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I homeschool my three kids, and one of them, my ten year old son, sounds a lot like your daughter. He is bright and a quick learner. He's curious and enthusiastic about a lot of things. But he also has a strong preference for being self directed, and if I don't structure things clearly, he while whine, or dawdle, or turn in half hearted efforts that don't respect his best work. Because of this, our homeschool runs best when it is highly structured. Here's how we do it.

First of all, I thought about my kid and what his "currency" is. That is, what things motivate him to work hard. For my kid that list is easy: He is motivated to win, so activities that are competitive work well; he is motivated by having choice and control; and he is motivated by video games. He's also motivated by sugar, but I'm not willing to set up a system of food reinforcers.

Then we set up the following structure:

In our house, on Monday through Saturday until the dishes have been cleared from the table after dinner, and on Sunday until the dishes have been cleared from lunch, it's considered "school time". During "school" you can only do educational things, which we define very broadly. There is a list on the fridge of "school activities" which has things like

Read (a book, comic, magazine, etc. . . )
Make art
Build something (legos, woodworking, and cardboard boxes are his favorites here)
Cook something
Make lego robots
Take an online Taekwondo class
Facetime a relative
Go outside (they can do anything outside, other than bringing their iPad outside to play video games)
Attend a religious service
Watch a science or social studies documentary from an approved list
Use certain iPad apps that teach coding, math (for my 10 year old, Beast Academy is his favorite), or science (he likes something called Uzzinggo) or board games (one of his siblings likes online chess, and Go puzzles)
Play a musical instrument, including watching instructional youtube videos

etc . . . It's a long list, and my kids are frequently coming to me and asking that things be added to the list and the answer is almost always yes.

The "not school" list is basically TV and video games, but of course they can do "school" things when it is "not school".

Then, I watch what they do spontaneously. I have an idea in my head of what I want them to accomplish in a week or month or school year, and I sort of track how that compares to what they are choosing to do. So, for example, I want my kids to read at least 30 minutes a day. One of my kids reads way more than that on his own, two don't. I want my kids to learn to cook. My 10 year old loves to cook and chooses it a lot, but my oldest doesn't.

Once I see what they are doing, I make a list of tasks for each day. I try and keep the list short, and to make sure that I give a very clear picture of what "done" means. So, I don't write "clean your room", I write "wipe down surfaces and baseboards, run the vacuum, empty trashcans and take the bag to the curb". If possible, I'll give two choices on how to meet a goal, so it might say "do the next two pages in your math book OR play fraction war with mom for half an hour".

I generally aim to have my 10 year old's list have about 3 - 4 hours of work. His list includes things that are academic, but also chores. So, for example, on today's list it says that he needs to make lunch for the family. On tomorrow's list it has him washing his clothes. Take a shower, and brush your teeth are on the list every day.

On Sunday evening, my kids and I sit and look at the lists for the whole week.

The each day the kids need to finish their list. "Not school" time doesn't start until the dishes are cleared, and the day's list is done.

This works really well for my kid who sounds like yours. He has gone from whining about every assignment, to working efficiently so he can get back to making his own choices. Because he's motivated by control, he'll also do things like spontaneously picking science activities, so that I leave science off his list. Because he's motivated by winning, he'll try and race his siblings, e.g. by doing things before they're due. They can move almost anything up (e.g. do all 5 math packets on Monday and then have a math free week), but they can't, for example, take 7 showers on Monday and have a shower free week.

So far, it's working.

OP here and THANK YOU, your post is immensely helpful. Have to think hard on what my child's currency is....because it's usually something really off-the-wall, like an exotic pet, or genuine spell book. The usual things like screen time, video games, and treats garner a "not worth it" response!

I'm using some of your feedback to create some structure/plan to the week - thanks again!